Marriage in Thailand

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BobHelm
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Post by BobHelm » March 10, 2012, 12:42 pm

The OP was requesting details of the Government pension scheme, that all UK nationals are entitled to upon reaching retirement age.
The rules for that scheme are universal & can be viewed at the government site already indicated.

You are now requesting details of private pension schemes George.
The rules of which will be as varied as there are schemes & are often even 'time related' to existing rules that were in place when a particular employee actually retired with a particular scheme.
Hence an impossible 'general' situation to answer, as the answer is all in the particulars of the individual concerned.
The simple answer is that in most cases the decision would be left completely to the Trustees of the Fund & would almost certainly be influenced by the age of the surviving widow.
My mother, for example, has been drawing a private pension of 50% of my now deceased fathers' pension in this way for over 30 years, including 'cost of living' rises every year. That is, however, completely down to the scheme that my father was enrolled in & has nothing to do with the pension that she collects in her own right from the Government...



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harmonyudon
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Post by harmonyudon » March 10, 2012, 12:54 pm

bazkashmir wrote:First of all i would like to say hello to everyone on the forum.
This is my first post and would be grateful if someone could advise me.
I am from England and thinking of marrying my long term girlfriend who is Thai.
After marriage we will live in Thailand.
The question i would like to ask is if i die will my Thai wife get a widows pension from England, even if she does not come to live in England and if the answer is yes what would i have to do to make sure she does.


Regards
bazkashmir
My point is/was no matter what kind of pension, usually married after retirement the widow is not granted.
From above post perhaps others can conclude if bazkashmir is already retired or not, I can not.
Also I can not conclude if he build-up a pension via his work.

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BobHelm
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Post by BobHelm » March 10, 2012, 1:11 pm

After asking the question George & receiving an answer from both TB & myself indicating that he should look at the .Gov web address did the OP, in any way, indicate that this was not a satisfactory answer to his question??

The answer is NO.

I think, from that, it is safe to assume that his question received a satisfactory answer & that he was not referring to a private pension scheme.

I am not sure if you are attempting to be helpful or disruptive George.
Personally, I can't see that your question, in any way, is actually the former!!

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harmonyudon
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Post by harmonyudon » March 10, 2012, 1:35 pm

BobHelm wrote:My mother, for example, has been drawing a private pension of 50% of my now deceased fathers' pension in this way for over 30 years, including 'cost of living' rises every year. That is, however, completely down to the scheme that my father was enrolled in & has nothing to do with the pension that she collects in her own right from the Government...
Dear BobHelm,
Perhaps in english language they have to change the word pension:
1. government retirement allowance
2. pension....corporate or private

so no confusion :D

and I hope that the UK soon will change the system. Government retirement allowance only to build-up
each year that you legally reside in UK and each person,married or not,build-up individually.

And BobHelm,
How about in the imaginary case your dad was devorced during his active life and after retirement married
a young thai bride in thailand and then die. The thai wife get the corporate/private widow pension??

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Post by trubrit » March 10, 2012, 3:42 pm

Well as we have touched on private pensions maybe a heads up might be appropriate. As Bob previously said with company schemes they are all different so can't really classify them . However many people do take out a scheme with a pension provider, normally an assurance company. They pay into it over many years, accumulating a pension pot. When they reach the agreed retirement age this sum of money is used to buy an annuity. Now the first thing to remember is that you don't have to accept the offer from the company with whom you have been saving. You are entitled to shop around for a better return on your pot .Now the normal is for you to be given a lump sum payment and the remainder is invested to give you a pension .Now unless you ask they will base this on paying you until your death, it then ceases. This is called a single life annuity .If however you want to provide for your spouse after your death you can opt for a double life annuity.This means after your death she will continue to get the same pension as you were getting, until her death .Now its obviously a greater benefit so , depending on her age, your pension will be reduced , quite considerably if she is much younger than you . As this has to be decided at the time of drawing the pension originally, its obvious that marrying after retiring, you cannot do this .Now further points to bear in mind. Whilst working and saving for this pension you will be allowed to claim tax relief on the payments. So when you draw it it will also be taxable where ever you live if the payments originate from the UK .The rub here is that the sum is added to your state pension to decide your tax liability. However although you cannot get a pension for your wife when living here, you can claim extra tax relief for her , as a dependent .
Ageing is a privilige denied to many .

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Post by harmonyudon » March 10, 2012, 5:19 pm

trubrit wrote: Now the first thing to remember is that you don't have to accept the offer from the company with whom you have been saving. You are entitled to shop around for a better return on your pot .
If its allowed... good advice =D>
As this has to be decided at the time of drawing the pension originally, its obvious that marrying after retiring, you cannot do this .
....that's what im wondering about b4.... obvious for you but perhaps not for some others :D
Now further points to bear in mind. Whilst working and saving for this pension you will be allowed to claim tax relief on the payments. So when you draw it it will also be taxable where ever you live if the payments originate from the UK .The rub here is that the sum is added to your state pension to decide your tax liability.
Is it in the UK also that the tax after retirement is less??
However although you cannot get a pension for your wife when living here.
sorry,cant follow you on this?? If Bob's mother decided b4 to live in TH she wont get the corporate/private
widow-pension???

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Post by Tafia » March 10, 2012, 7:58 pm

harmonyudon
I can understand the confusion as most schemes are like that.
The UK State Pension (as truebrit says) stopped the widows pension some time ago and replaced it with the bereavement benefit which TB outlines in his post and is available to view on the Goverment website Directgov.com
Private or Company Pensions whether payable to widows to those who marry after retirement depends entirely on that company's scheme and policy.
I was in the Civil Service and as such my wife (like Bobs Mum) will be entitled to 3 mths full pension at the time of my death and then 50% of my pension (index linked) thereafter. Each scheme as its own rules and worthy of checking.
It's worth noting that my work pension is payable wherever in the world I am located and remain index linked, whereas the State Pension doesn't attract index linking for those who live here in Thailand

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Post by harmonyudon » March 10, 2012, 10:39 pm

Tafia wrote:Private or Company Pensions whether payable to widows to those who marry after retirement depends entirely on that company's scheme and policy.
@Tafia,
That's why im wondering ...see my 1st post on this subject.

It seems that its not so obvious like Trubit says cause you disagree with Trubit .

Although I agree with Trubit and beleive that a widow pension will not be granted for widows of those who married after his retirement. Please give me one example of a corporate pension-scheme who does,anywhere in the world.

I will then legally marry a young girl when I know that i'll die tomorrow,just to tease the pension-fund/insurance
company.
:D

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Post by Tafia » March 11, 2012, 11:08 am

Please give me one example of a corporate pension-scheme who does,anywhere in the world.
Sorry mate cannot help you with corporate schemes, all I know the Civil Service does, I checked it with them before I got married.
I have been reliably informed that there are also some schemes that will not benefit the widow if there is a big age gap (so you couldn't marry a 16 yr old on your death bed)

I'm afraid it really comes down to the terms and conditions of individual pension schemes and their policies which by their nature do not make interesting reading.

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Post by harmonyudon » March 11, 2012, 1:15 pm

Sorry Tafia, UK-Civil Service pension-scheme-system or not:
its hard to beleive that, if someone is single at retiremement age, the periodically amount of the actuarial annuity which is then based on a single life can later be changed into 2 lifes, also when for example you never contribute in the premiums for 2 lifes during your active working-life.

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Post by kumphawapi » March 11, 2012, 1:35 pm

You want evidence?
see http://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/pensi ... s_faqs.htm
A UK Teacher can marry after retirement, and his widow will get a pension.

Q. If I remarry, enter into a civil partnership or nominate a partner after I retire, will a pension be paid to my dependants after I die?

A. The table below sets out the benefits payable depending upon your individual circumstances.

Widows

If a member marries or remarries after leaving pensionable employment only service from 6.4.78 counts towards the pension.

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Post by Tafia » March 11, 2012, 2:16 pm

harmonyudon wrote:Sorry Tafia, UK-Civil Service pension-scheme-system or not:
its hard to beleive that, if someone is single at retiremement age, the periodically amount of the actuarial annuity which is then based on a single life can later be changed into 2 lifes, also when for example you never contribute in the premiums for 2 lifes during your active working-life.
All I can tell you is of my own experience, whether you believe it or not is as they say 'up to you' but I did my checks before marrying and it was confirmed in writing by my pension provider.
I should add that my CC Pension was a Non Contributory and part of my terms and conditions.
Sorry I can't be of any further help on the matter.

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Post by bazkashmir » March 11, 2012, 3:00 pm

harmonyudon wrote:
bazkashmir wrote:First of all i would like to say hello to everyone on the forum.
This is my first post and would be grateful if someone could advise me.
I am from England and thinking of marrying my long term girlfriend who is Thai.
After marriage we will live in Thailand.
The question i would like to ask is if i die will my Thai wife get a widows pension from England, even if she does not come to live in England and if the answer is yes what would i have to do to make sure she does.


Regards
bazkashmir
My point is/was no matter what kind of pension, usually married after retirement the widow is not granted.
From above post perhaps others can conclude if bazkashmir is already retired or not, I can not.
Also I can not conclude if he build-up a pension via his work.
Yes i have build up a pension via my work i was working for 30 years with same company and took early retirement due to health reasons,i have not yet reached state pension age.

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Post by bazkashmir » March 11, 2012, 3:22 pm

My inquiry was about the government pension. Thank you to everybody for your replies.

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Post by harmonyudon » March 23, 2012, 11:58 pm

@Tafia & kumphawapi
I took the freedom to contact the administrator of the UK- Civil Service Pensions.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Good morning George

The exact wording of the scheme rules defining an eligible widow is as below:

4.4 (i) In the case of a civil servant who retires before 6 April 1978, an eligible widow is a woman to whom he was married at the time of his death, and who was not living with a man as his wife; if he dies while no longer a civil servant, she must also have been married to him at some time while he was a civil servant.
(ii) In the case of a civil servant who retires or is due to retire on or after 6 April 1978, an eligible widow is a woman to whom he was married at the time of his death, whether or not the marriage took place while he was a civil servant.

Consequently, providing he is legally married at the time of his death, a widow's pension would be payable. as mentioned however, this is based only on service after 6.4.1978, so if for example, he left Civil Service employment on 30.4.1978, less than one month's service, the widow's pension would be very small, possibly less than one pound each month.

The pension is payable for as long as the widow remains unmarried & not living with another man as 'commonlaw' man & wife.

If you have any further queries, please contact us again.

Regards


Glynn Oliver
Senior Pension Administrator
Awards Team
Capita Civil Service Pensions
PO Box 215
Darlington
DL3 9GT

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Post by BobHelm » March 24, 2012, 8:50 am

So Tafia was absolutely correct then George. (Rather as I expected, knowing him.. :D )

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Post by harmonyudon » March 24, 2012, 10:36 am

Advice to all single or devorced civil servants retieree's on their death bead would be:

Legally marry a (young) woman :D :D

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Post by Tafia » March 24, 2012, 11:47 am

harmonyudon wrote:Advice to all single or devorced civil servants retieree's on their death bead would be:

Legally marry a (young) woman :D :D
Now there may be a rule about that, as it doesn't affect me I've never looked into it but anyone who it may affect should check first.

By the way the widows pension increases in value by way of index linking exactly the same as my pension does.
The April rise is calculated by the previous Sept CPI as is the CC & State Pension. This year it is 5.2%
God Bless the Civil Service. \:D/ :-" \:D/

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Post by harmonyudon » March 24, 2012, 12:39 pm

@Tafia,
I'ts still for me hard to beleive but above is the answer of this mail:

_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Dear Glynn,
Thanks for your reply. Your pension scheme is amazing.
If a member marries or re-marries after retirement, a reduced widow's pension would still be payable,
based only on service after 6 April 1978.
One more question please:
Also when he legally marry on his death bead in for example Thailand with a young thai bride??
Is the reduced widow's pension a life-time pension??


George

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Post by BobHelm » March 24, 2012, 1:01 pm

The important thing that the pension administrator does not mention, that Tafia hints at, is how much the widows pension would be.
If married before the pension was taken then it normally is 50% of the employees pension. However most schemes usually have 'age related' clause even then. So if, for example you are 60 & marry a 25 year old then she will never be in the position of getting anything like a 50% pension even if you are still working at the time.
Marriage when in receipt of a pension almost universally applies an age versus percentage calculation.
Hence the 25 year old widow may well get a lifetime pension but the amount received could be so minuscule as to be meaningless.

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