Sin Sod

[Galee]

Hi all,

Thought I would raise this old chestnut as it's on my mind at the moment.

Hope it doesn't cause too many disagreements and I'm probably leaving myself wide open by expressing my thoughts on the subject.

When I first heard of Sin Sod my initial thought was that some Thai women want the best of both worlds. Some of them like the security that a Westerner can bring, please notice I say, "some", yet still keep to Thai traditions when it is to their benefit. I was a bit anti Sin Sod, but at the time was a little nieve to Thai customs.

However, now, my attitude has changed, although I accept I am still relatively nieve. I have made the decision to auguement myself into Thai life, not my GF into a western lifestyle, so I should be the one prepared to accept Thai customs. I'm beginning to realise how important it is for Thais to "keep face" with each other. If I am to integrate and be accepted by my GF's relations in the future, then I would rather pay up and be respected, than be despised and called a "cheap charlie".

I think I would prefer the respect and love of a wife, than a healthy bank balance for a few months.

Gary

[BangkokButcher]

I would have to agree with it, to try and change something within a culture without it natually occuring would be terrible imho

[valentine]

Well I went to a Thai/Thai wedding not long ago and we all sat around while the sin sod was handed over. There was 500,000bht in 500s, looks more, and 10bht weight gold.I was amazed because the guy had borrowed 1,000 bht off me the week before.Where did this all come from I asked the wife. Apparently the brides, yes the brides family ,had pledged their house to the bank, and it was all going back the next day, with the exception of 2bht gold for the bride.All in the name of face.
My own experience is similar. I gave the wifes mother 1 million baht for everyone to see and she gave it back, all of it, towards our purchasing a house together.
This seems to be the norm now, so that I agree to, but not if they want to keep it.

[Bandung_Dero]

I'm sitting on the fence with this one and did not vote. Where I do not agree with the principles of Sin Sod I do agree that by living in the country we should abide by their customs.
Prior to our traditional marriage I went down to the bank with the family and paid out the mortgage on their home, 62500 Baht. The land title was placed on the table during the ceremony, everyone satisfied.

[banpaeng]

I to can not vote. 33 years ago I told my wife I would not buy her. I did tell her that I would help a family of my wifes but would not do the sin sod. I must say I was a bit ignorant of the custom. I must also say I was in the Air Force and basically did not have any money either.

Would I do this today I really don't know but doubt it. Maybe if it is describe above with the giving back it might be ok.

By the way I have respect at my wifes home. I also give respect to the family and think they are my equal. I guess to make the long story short I do not regret doing it this way.

[arjay]

Yes, whilst it is traditional for them and I have paid it, in some cases I am sure it is used as another way of them relieving us of our money. It tends to be higher where farangs are concerned. I too have heard stories of some or all of it being given back afterwards, which I think proves the family's honest intentions.

[yorkman]

I can't say I agree with it; but my agreement does not matter a jot really, its custom here and who am I to disagree?

I at first had the issue about "buying" a wife. Her mother was very cool about it, she just said "does'nt matter". But, it does...and when I cottoned on to this I did the necessary.

By the following morning the money was back in my bank; the parents had absolutely no intention of keeping it. If they had I might, however, have a completely different view on the custom, and indeed them!

The gold remains around my wife's neck however...

John

[businessman]

Those i know who have paid have always got all the money back but the gold is kept and shared among the female relatives of the wife's family..

I believe in upholding the tradition as i choose to live here,but had no need to pay myself as the wife was a divorcee.

[Bump]

I can't say I agree with it; but my agreement does not matter a jot really, its custom here and who am I to disagree?

I at first had the issue about "buying" a wife. Her mother was very cool about it, she just said "does'nt matter". But, it does...and when I cottoned on to this I did the necessary.

By the following morning the money was back in my bank; the parents had absolutely no intention of keeping it. If they had I might, however, have a completely different view on the custom, and indeed them!

The gold remains around my wife's neck however...

John

I had to vote yes and let me explain why. A few years back I was doing volunteer teaching in a english class for the staff. Mind you I'm no teacher all these people, professors most of them, already spoke english. My goal get them to use it. So we would debate things all the time, one of the subjects was the sin sod. Every Thai in that room including all the guys said yes it was a good thing.

Now I thought this was interesting and really went after the guys, the final answer from them was this was thier way of showing they were really serious about the marriage. The idea that they were marrying the woman alone was not enough.

We also talked about the probable origins of the cutom and it is believed that the reason for the money was and is the custom in a Thai house that the groom moved in with a the brides family, hence another mouth to feed.

Then we talked about the numbers being seen today I.E. millions of baht, not one agreed that this was reasonable.

Then I challegened the females, posed the followoing example. A man wants to marry them, he is a gambler a cheat and will beat them, but he has a million baht to pay. Another man is a good hard working man that really loves her, will never have girlfriends, Mia Nois and will always be good to her and thier children and she loves this man. However he does not have a lot of money, but mother says you have to marry the other man, because he has money. Every woman in that room said there mothers would not do that. But I pushed the issue and asked but what if she did, not one woman would answer that question. I wasn't surprised the Thai way of handling something like this would be to say nothing, but I believe the reality as least in this group is there would be a rough time around the brides house until she got her way.

Now in poorer families I have my doubts that this would hold true, nor do I believe that the girl would put up any resistence. The reason I say that is the dream of marrying a farrang and his money could have been engrained in this girls mind at a very young age. So her idea of marriage prospects may be very different then what we are used to.

There is not one of us old geezers who couldn't have a 18 year old wife if we wanted one. More then likely it would be a major disappointment for all concerned, but it can be done.

The examples that I see of the flash money seem to fall into lines that I believe would be acceptable. But there are many families I believe that would not give the money back and if you talking about million that is something I would never do no matter how much money I had. Would I give a token to show respect for the family yes, but no where near that.

I thought paying off the Mortgage for the family was a great idea, that is true respect for the family.

I didn't pay a in Sin Sod in my marriage a my wifes parents were deceased. Had they been alive I would have done something to stay in the tradition.

We are just in the wrong time fram 50 years ago a pig and a few chickens would have done the trick and then we could have moved in and helped them to eat them

[yorkman]

Those i know who have paid have always got all the money back but the gold is kept and shared among the female relatives of the wife's family..

Ahhh I thought on my feet that time (makes a change), 1 very solid gold necklace, no chance of her relatives doing any sharing!! Any anyway she is not likely to be parted from it!

@Ray, Well its been my observation, not a large sample so it may not entirely hold true, that its the richer families that do the keeping, and the poorer ones that are more likely to hand it all back! However, my wife tells me that is almost seen as a bad thing now to keep it; it shows lack of care for their daughters future etc etc. Maybe these things evolve a little, like all traditions.

I did the same or similar as you. I found out after the event, (it was my wifes suspicion, so in a typical "farang" way I just went straight to the point with her mother) that they had accumulated some debt putting all the children, no exceptions, through university etc which is quite a feat for a village family. They have the local rice mill thing, a shop and other businesses so are not in a local sense poor,but this still hung as a millstone around their neck. So I fixed that one. The most satisfying thing about this, was that my wife felt an enormous debt, to her parents for bringing her up and taking good care of her, lifted as well.

They have never even hinted at anything else, and in fact the whole family are incredibly generous to me, not financially but in many other ways.

I still can't "agree" with Sin Sod though; whatever the justification, but thats just the western view inside me. But, like many things, you need to either accept it, or perhaps live somewhere else; its part of the culture and tradition which should not be a "pick and mix" on my part.

John

[Bump]

Those i know who have paid have always got all the money back but the gold is kept and shared among the female relatives of the wife's family..

Ahhh I thought on my feet that time (makes a change), 1 very solid gold necklace, no chance of her relatives doing any sharing!! Any anyway she is not likely to be parted from it!

@Ray, Well its been my observation, not a large sample so it may not entirely hold true, that its the richer families that do the keeping, and the poorer ones that are more likely to hand it all back! However, my wife tells me that is almost seen as a bad thing now to keep it; it shows lack of care for their daughters future etc etc. Maybe these things evolve a little, like all traditions.

I did the same or similar as you. I found out after the event, (it was my wifes suspicion, so in a typical "farang" way I just went straight to the point with her mother) that they had accumulated some debt putting all the children, no exceptions, through university etc which is quite a feat for a village family. They have the local rice mill thing, a shop and other businesses so are not in a local sense poor,but this still hung as a millstone around their neck. So I fixed that one. The most satisfying thing about this, was that my wife felt an enormous debt, to her parents for bringing her up and taking good care of her, lifted as well.

They have never even hinted at anything else, and in fact the whole family are incredibly generous to me, not financially but in many other ways.

I still can't "agree" with Sin Sod though; whatever the justification, but thats just the western view inside me. But, like many things, you need to either accept it, or perhaps live somewhere else; its part of the culture and tradition which should not be a "pick and mix" on my part.

John

You know I think each set of circumstances will be different, the beauty of Thailand it is truly up to you.

[bigchang]

interesting answers so far

i voted for yes,and yes,when i married my wife last year in thailand i paid 100k baht and i wanted the family to keep it,but other than this the family dont want any help or regular money from us

part of this sin sod was used a week later for a tamboon party and the funeral party of my wifes dad and one of her brothers,which at the time they had no money for,so it was actually very important for me to do this

also this topic was never brought up by my wife or her family,but by me,and also i deceided,how much

the gold,i gave my wife belongs to her and no way anybody would get it


on the other hand,my wife got a big farm and a house on it in her name,which i found out after the wedding

see you,matt

[Bandung_Dero]

Those i know who have paid have always got all the money back

It's not my place to say too much but, I know of a situation where a close farang friendship was destroyed by Sin Sod where her family kept it and his mates wife received a secret 'Spotters Fee', commission from the family.

[valentine]

Yes the 'Spotters fee" as you called it is normal ,especially when you have met on the internet. It is paid to the owner of the shop for reading and writing the e-mails. Sometimes it is a fixed fee, about 50,000bht, or a percentage around 20% of total.Beware to of the personal introduction "To my sister!!!" by anyone.There is an American company that brings groups of guys here to meet ladies for marriage, they charge for the tour but the girls payment is a percent, more than20% of the Sinsod.I have sat in the hotel lobby and listened to the discussion going on in Thai. The man sitting there with a silly grin on his face whilst his"new "beloved is agreeing to how much he can be ripped off.I sometimes feel like intervening, it is so disgusting, but if he is stupid enough to buy a wife, like a can of beans, he deserves it.

[banpaeng]

Mr. Valentine I have seen the US side when they hit the US. It is not a pretty site to see these girls make fools of the fellas here to. Wife told me of a new one this week. Male 68, Female 24. Made man buy her a Jag. Has a whole lot of plastic in body. The guy is looking for consulting work as she has about used up his retirement. Will not belabor this point but I as you wish someone would intervene. It is sad to see the spiral when the girl uses all she can get and then split. Seems it happens quite a bit. Old guys just don't want to be lonely. Who does?

[valentine]

Banpaeng. I didn't want to elaborate but this same girl in discussion with another, when asked why she wanted him, 'He was very overweight to put it kindly" said, When I get over there, I can get rid of him and find another!!! It is very difficult sometimes to hold my tounge, but as my wife puts it.Whats in it for you? only trouble and remember we live here.

[valentine]

By the way, forgot to ask, was it the girl or the Jag had the plastic infills?

[banpaeng]

Yep I do know what you mean. I am overweight but been working on it with the same woman 34 years.

I've seen it to many times. We to hold our tongue as we live here. Maybe we will be lucky and some of these folks will read this.

I also must say some of these relationships work somewhat out. If the girl and man have good hearts (Yes they use each other) then at least they do stay together and when the old gentleman passes she gets what she wants and he got the pleasure of her company. I do know of a couple of couples like this, so not all bad.

I haven't seen the Jag or girl so I will let your imagination run a bit on the plastic Wife thought it was funny to.

[Bump]

Mr. Valentine I have seen the US side when they hit the US. It is not a pretty site to see these girls make fools of the fellas here to. Wife told me of a new one this week. Male 68, Female 24. Made man buy her a Jag. Has a whole lot of plastic in body. The guy is looking for consulting work as she has about used up his retirement. Will not belabor this point but I as you wish someone would intervene. It is sad to see the spiral when the girl uses all she can get and then split. Seems it happens quite a bit. Old guys just don't want to be lonely. Who does?

No doubt that there are abuses and yes they are a shame. You see lots of people literally destoyed by some of these games. The big question is if you stepped in would they believe you?

If things seem unreasonable in a situation they probably are. I spent my first year here playing the field can't tell you how many times I was asked to buy cell phones and motorcycles within three days of meeting a girl. I finally bought a cell phone and just started rotating it between the replacements. Would I have fronted Sin Sod for any one of those girls no way

But not all the ladies here are that way and each of us have to take the time to see what we is really going on before we tie the knot just as we would anywhere.

Pursuing a dream in your latter years is attractive, but when it's all said and done that dream may turn into nightmare.

[banpaeng]

Ray I read this to my wife and we both agree that is well said.