Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

World news discussion forum
Post Reply
User avatar
BobHelm
udonmap.com
Posts: 18411
Joined: September 7, 2005, 11:58 pm
Location: Udon Thani

Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by BobHelm » June 1, 2009, 11:54 am

A very interesting stance taken by this Egyptian cleric. For the future of the world (& the middle east in particular) I can only hope that his words are taken seriously by Muslims around the world...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8076410.stm

Certainly his stance on this will not be supported by many of the 'radicals'....
The grand mufti, who is state-appointed, also said it was also not allowed for Muslims to kill civilians even during a declared war.



User avatar
Astana
udonmap.com
Posts: 1331
Joined: September 8, 2006, 11:50 am

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by Astana » June 1, 2009, 12:59 pm

"With tears in his eyes, Grand Mufti Sheikh Ali Gomaa told reporters his religious edicts were never influenced by pressure from the authorities."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 094076.stm

This was just after his 2007 ruling that speeding drivers cannot be condemned for killing people who deliberately stand in their way.

The same logic applied to the use of nuclear weapons certainly does make for interesting reading, particularly as Egypt portents not to have any WMD's. Moreover, Egypt is seen by many as a despotic regime whose dictator has been completely discredited by his own people, so how can we take such an edict seriously with all channels of communication including the Grand Mufti's peddling of a new kind of radical state led Islam— traditionalism without the extremism as nothing more than spin.

It is interesting that an Egyptian Sunni cleric issues this edict before Pres. Billy Obama provides us with his probable and no doubt rhetorical one world speech from Cairo. Choosing Cairo shows that Obama is still well within that Middle East-centric approach, where Pres. Hosni Mubarak is not viewed as representing the Muslim world. Nevertheless, for him to deliver such a speech from an Arab capital is a great gesture. If the content goes with it, Arab public opinion may well start to turn.

Anyway fatwa's can always be retracted later. :pirate:

User avatar
BKKSTAN
udonmap.com
Posts: 8886
Joined: July 18, 2005, 12:55 pm
Location: Nong Khai

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by BKKSTAN » June 1, 2009, 1:18 pm

What the World needs is for the majority Muslims to stand up and declare the true beliefs to counter these radical Islamists that have perverted the religion to justify their terrorism acts! =D> =D>

User avatar
Ter
udonmap.com
Posts: 730
Joined: June 6, 2007, 2:48 am
Location: Highgate/Sribunruang.

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by Ter » June 1, 2009, 2:05 pm

That is all it would take for me cut them some slack Stan. I have been waiting a long time, when I walk past the mosque in finsbury park and hear the radicals shouting to the congregation i don't see any shaking their heads and offering a different point of view, or a demonstration against the radicals by normal muslims. I work with perhaps 70 muslim men without exception not one will discuss the situation.
I believe I will wait a long time.

User avatar
Astana
udonmap.com
Posts: 1331
Joined: September 8, 2006, 11:50 am

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by Astana » June 1, 2009, 3:17 pm

Depending on your point of view the famous or infamous phrase 'Inshallah' (God Willing), allows the user to bear no responsibility for the result of an action or inaction as the case may be.

Consequently, the Muslim world denies responsibility and blames anyone or everything else for what happens, they only witness under God's watchful eye and therefore do not possess the capacity to undertstand, comprehend or utilize the mental constructs of guilt, truth and of course responsibility. Until that changes nothing will actually change and atrophy will occur as it has done since the time of the Prophet (Peace be upon him).

Or as the original phrase can be expanded to 'Bukra Inshallah' - Tomorrow God Willing! :guiness:

User avatar
Aardvark
udonmap.com
Posts: 5837
Joined: March 5, 2007, 9:08 am
Location: Perth Australia and Udon

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by Aardvark » June 1, 2009, 3:36 pm

Yes Astana, until such time as these people are Educated to a first world standard they will never understand :oops:

User avatar
Astana
udonmap.com
Posts: 1331
Joined: September 8, 2006, 11:50 am

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by Astana » June 1, 2009, 3:51 pm

Denial clearly isn't just a river in Egypt ](*,)

Allen A Hale
udonmap.com
Posts: 134
Joined: June 12, 2008, 8:34 am
Location: Udon
Contact:

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by Allen A Hale » June 1, 2009, 3:59 pm

This is GREAT news! Now we no longer have to worry about Iran or Pakistan!

Now if only someone could convert North Korea to Islam. We would not have to worry about them and the USA would not have to continue to make threats that it does not have the fortitude to carry out.

Reminds me of an old saying "Put up or shut up". I think that the time is now to decide.

User avatar
banpaeng
udonmap.com
Posts: 2644
Joined: July 4, 2005, 9:20 pm

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by banpaeng » June 1, 2009, 7:30 pm

IMHO Aa you hit the nail on the head. I have said for years that education is the whole problem of world conflicts. I really think Oil takes a distant second and say that if the folks were educated, then they would not be so gullible to be led down a road saying something else is the problem.

I have realized that my education is lacking in many spots and that is when I usually get into trouble. I always try to learn something, even if uninteresting so I can make better decisions myself.

I think if we got rid of some of the current NGO's and a lot of the stuff they intend to do and make all of them be teachers (which a lot do now) and not religious teachers, we will be better off.

westerby
udonmap.com
Posts: 3056
Joined: November 22, 2005, 3:06 pm

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by westerby » June 2, 2009, 2:47 am

Astana, you posted some interesting points in your replies, especially as I think you're on the ground in the Middle East or Central Asia.

Traditionalism without extremism is just spin? That says to me that you feel traditional Islam is extremist but is traditional another word for fundamental?

Do you think there's a liberal dimension to Islam? There are fundamentalist and liberal Christians as well as orthodox and progressive Jews but I'm not sure about Islam.

BBC wrote:Grand Mufti of Egypt Ali Gomaa said using such weapons would violate Islamic teachings as Muslims as well as non-Muslims could be killed.


This quote caught my eye, similar to what Bob posted above. You could read this two ways, either he's saying it's wrong to kill Muslims and non-Muslims, or he saying it's acceptable to kill non-believers but not a good idea to do so if you're killing believers aswell. I think he's referring to how indiscriminate a nuclear weapon can be. :lol:

User avatar
BKKSTAN
udonmap.com
Posts: 8886
Joined: July 18, 2005, 12:55 pm
Location: Nong Khai

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by BKKSTAN » June 2, 2009, 6:09 am

Ter wrote:That is all it would take for me cut them some slack Stan. I have been waiting a long time, when I walk past the mosque in finsbury park and hear the radicals shouting to the congregation i don't see any shaking their heads and offering a different point of view, or a demonstration against the radicals by normal muslims. I work with perhaps 70 muslim men without exception not one will discuss the situation.
I believe I will wait a long time.
I wonder whether it is fear of reprisal by extremists,combined with some resentment towards non muslims because of a perceived discrimination and history of Old Christian persecution such as the Crusades of the past!

It is hard for me to believe that loving devout Muslims really support these radical extremists and their overall aims!!
If they did,with the amount of Muslims and Muslim countries that now exist, they could overwhelm the the ''Coalition fighting forces'' in play with massive jihadist numbers!

Throughout the Muslim nations these radicals are a minority,albeit that in some cases they are in leadership roles!

There is no massive Muslim uprising taking place,the fighting and suicide bombing is being done by a tiny minority within the Muslim people!

It reminds me of the Mexican gangs of Los Angeles and other America locals, with their bases in the neighborhoods of Mexicans ,who as a majority are not gangsters ,but live under the fear of reprisal if they speak out or act against these gangsters,not being supportive of the gangsters except in areas of perceived discrimination by law enforcement ,as some innocents are mistreated because of profiling by race or looks!

Terrorists that are of one racial or ethnic group and live or hide amongst the civilian population that is of the same racial/ethnic group,are very difficult to combat!The only hope is that their is enough respect and fair treatment of the majority group, given the support and education, to rise up against the ''bad'' element once they understand that they are victims also,maybe the greatest victims of all!

gulfman
udonmap.com
Posts: 179
Joined: October 11, 2007, 6:13 pm
Location: Caribbean/Udon

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by gulfman » June 2, 2009, 8:27 am

Aardvark wrote:Yes Astana, until such time as these people are Educated to a first world standard they will never understand :

On the other hand, 'these people' might see an alternative solution as the ignorant non-believers converting to Islam. :shock:

User avatar
Aardvark
udonmap.com
Posts: 5837
Joined: March 5, 2007, 9:08 am
Location: Perth Australia and Udon

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by Aardvark » June 2, 2009, 8:29 am

I rest my case :D

User avatar
Astana
udonmap.com
Posts: 1331
Joined: September 8, 2006, 11:50 am

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by Astana » June 2, 2009, 1:55 pm

In tenth and eleventh-century Syria there lived a blind poet called Al-Ma'arri. Who wrote that

"They (Ulema - religious leader or council) recite their sacred books, although the fact informs me that these are fiction from first to last. O Reason, thou (alone) speakest the truth. Then perish the fools who forged the religious traditions or interpreted them!"

Later in 1280, the Jewish philosopher, Ibn Kammuna, criticized Islam in his book Examination of the Three Faiths. He reasoned that the Sharia was incompatible with the principles of justice, and that this undercut the notion of Muhammad being the perfect man: "there is no proof that Muhammad attained perfection and the ability to perfect others as claimed."The philosopher thus claimed that people converted to Islam from ulterior motives, they were and remain...

That is why, to this day we never see anyone converting to Islam unless in terror, or in quest of power, or to avoid heavy taxation, or to escape humiliation, or if taken prisoner, or because of infatuation with a Muslim woman, or for some similar reason. Nor do we see a respected, wealthy, and pious non-Muslim well versed in both his faith and that of Islam, going over to the Islamic faith without some of the aforementioned or similar motives.

My point is that the track record of Islam far from having any high ground to hold, has been criticised by many and all other faiths for allowing Muhammad to "bestow praise on such instances of treachery, inhumanity, cruelty, revenge, bigotry, as are utterly incompatible with civilized society. No steady rule of right seems there to be attended to; and every action is blamed or praised, so far as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers."
In Of the Standard of Taste, an essay by David Hume.

Overall, these people (high and low born) fail in terms of education, responsibility and even religious piety and I would reiterate the statement that Traditionalism without extremism is just spin? I therefore heartly agree with Winston Churchill who wrote ...

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome".

Astana is currently with his American friend Mr. Barrett scoping things out in the far pavilions. :censored:

User avatar
Ter
udonmap.com
Posts: 730
Joined: June 6, 2007, 2:48 am
Location: Highgate/Sribunruang.

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by Ter » June 2, 2009, 2:15 pm

Thanks for that Astana, good read, Churchill had great insight and accuracy in prediction. How true it rings today.
I like the sentence about christianity sheltered by science, though I believe right now it is on the run due to nuclear proliferation and not only from muslims. :|

gulfman
udonmap.com
Posts: 179
Joined: October 11, 2007, 6:13 pm
Location: Caribbean/Udon

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by gulfman » June 3, 2009, 7:25 am

Astana quotes, " ....Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live."

Has anyone on the forum visited Dubai? Abu Dhabi? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? The materialistic development they have achieved in the last thirty years took most of Europe five hundred years and the USA two hundred. The Moslem countries had no problems with the West until the West started to interfere with them.

User avatar
jackspratt
udonmap.com
Posts: 16156
Joined: July 2, 2006, 5:29 pm

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by jackspratt » June 3, 2009, 8:11 am

Astana wrote: That is why, to this day we never see anyone converting to Islam unless in terror, or in quest of power, or to avoid heavy taxation, or to escape humiliation, or if taken prisoner, or because of infatuation with a Muslim woman, or for some similar reason.
When you write "we" you obviously mean "I", because your experience certainly does not match that of others.

There are numerous converts to Islam in Australia, at least one of whom I know who does not fit into any of the pigeon holes you mention above - although I do notice you give yourself an "out" by mentioning "similar reason".

User avatar
Astana
udonmap.com
Posts: 1331
Joined: September 8, 2006, 11:50 am

Re: Cleric 'bans' Muslim use of nuclear weapons

Post by Astana » June 3, 2009, 2:39 pm

gulfman wrote:Astana quotes, " ....Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live."

Has anyone on the forum visited Dubai? Abu Dhabi? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? The materialistic development they have achieved in the last thirty years took most of Europe five hundred years and the USA two hundred. The Moslem countries had no problems with the West until the West started to interfere with them.
I certainly would like to learn of your experience in any of those countiries mentioned. I also like to know when, today, yesterday, seven hundred years ago when the West started to interfere with them.

Jackspratt:

In a democratic Westernised country like Australia I would imagine the experience of conversion to be relatively easy, however, it is not such an easy experience if you renounce it. As you are immediately under fatwa, which is very clear on the subject:

"Since he left Islam, he will be invited to express his regret. If he does not regret, he will be killed pertaining to rights and obligations of the Islamic law. See below for prime example:

Image

Source: Orientalist

Author: al-Azhr, the Egyptian Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs

This Fatawa describes how an Egyptian man turned apostate and the subsequent punishment prescribed for him by the Al-Azhr Fatawa council. The following translation is a rough guide:

In the Name of Allah the Most Beneficient the Most Merciful.
Al-Azhr
Council of Fatawa.
This question was presented by Mr. Ahmed Darwish and brought forward by [name obscured] who is of German nationality.
A man whose religion was Islam and his nationality is Egyptian married a German Christian and the couple agreed that the husband would join the Christian faith and doctrine.
1) What is the Islamic ruling in relation to this man? What are the punishments prescribed for this act?
2) Are his children considered Muslim or Christian?
The Answer:
All praise is to Allah, the Lord of the Universe and salutations on the leader of the righteous, our master Muhammed, his family and all of his companions.
Thereafter:
This man has committed apostasy; he must be given a chance to repent and if he does not then he must be killed according to Shariah.
As far as his children are concerned, as long as they are children they are considered Muslim, but after they reach the age of puberty, then if they remain with Islam they are Muslim, but if they leave Islam and they do not repent they must be killed and Allah knows best.
Seal of Al-Azhr
Head of the Fatawa Council of Al-Azhr.
Abdullah al-Mishadd (عبد الله المشد‎)

Post Reply

Return to “World News”