ClimateGate busts things wide open

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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Lone Star » July 31, 2018, 4:20 pm

It's possible that those who struggle with definitions and comprehension may also struggle with basic statistical analysis.

First, since BP is a British multinational oil and gas company headquartered in London, England. I fail to understand how they could be so biased in favor of the US to post false information.

Second, companies that provide false information are subject to civil and criminal liability, not to mention ethical violations that harm their credibility. If anyone chooses not to believe the BP chart, then don't believe. I don't care, unless you choose to provide proof that the chart and the accompanying data are wrong.

Third, the chart only shows each country's progress at reducing or increasing co2 levels over a 1-year period. It makes no claim regarding total pollution levels, total co2 output, population sizes or anything else. It only provides a view of the progress in cleaning up or the lack thereof.

Fourth, it's easy to ask questions to try to win an argument that isn't being made. Answering those questions would have nothing to do with what the chart or accompanying data is providing. I would advise the questioner to look up his/her own answers to those questions.

Anyone who chooses to believe that BP is lying, wrong, misused data and/or is biased against the rest of the world and in favor of the US is free to believe whatever they wish. I don't care. It's not my data. I didn't make up numbers (as some others have done regarding war casualties, economics, war history, etc. in the past).

Lastly, I'm not going to attempt to besmirch anyone personally for not agreeing with the chart. Up to you.

Here's wishing all a happy and safe week.

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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Lone Star » August 2, 2018, 9:03 am

The US Environmental Protection Agency released the agency's annual air quality report on Tuesday. It showed that pollution levels in many areas have been dramatically reduced -- even while the economy is booming.

Andrew Wheeler, the acting administrator, held a press conference on Tuesday to coincide with the release of the report.
“This report details a remarkable achievement that should be recognized, celebrated, and replicated around the world. A 73% reduction in any other social ill, such as crime, disease, or drug addiction, would lead the evening news.”
The EPA report shows that between 1970 and 2017, the combined emissions of six harmful pollutants have declined by more than 70%. During that same time period, the US economy grew three times larger.

Wheeler futher stated in his press conference:
“When President Trump called me four weeks ago to assume the duties of acting administrator, he asked me to continue to clean up the air, clean up the water, and continue deregulation to spur economic growth. The president knows we can do all three, we at EPA know that we can do all three, and the data from our release today shows that we can do all three.”
In the EPA report, it shows that large reductions were accomplished in the areas of sulfur dioxide (88%), lead (80%), carbon monoxide (77%), nitrogen dioxide (56%), fine particulate matter and ground-level ozone.

I guess where the US is concerned, it has reflected a reduction in many things bad and increases in many things good.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Lone Star » August 11, 2018, 9:10 am

Out of Winnipeg ... Climate Barbie is back in the news in Canada. 55555

The embattled Environment Minister has finally admitted that the carbon tax will hurt jobs and drive them out of Canada and probably across the border.

McKenna's department posted a document online recently that pledged an exemption of the carbon tax on industries for 80-90% of their greenhouse gas emissions. Why have exemptions if this is so important? Canada doesn't want to lose jobs to countries that don't have carbon taxes.

However, all along McKenna has stated that the carbon tax would HELP Canada's economy.

BUT ...

Climate Barbie isn't exempting consumers who will have to pay the carbon tax on 100% of their heat, gas and other fuels. So they don't care that much about a hard-working Canadian. To make matters worse, the Canadian government is yet to tell Canadians what they're going to have to pay.

Economists in Canada are predicting a ballpark figure of about $1,000 a year per household.

And we still don't know HOW that money will be spent or the MEASURABLE results of that spending.

Nah, it's not about money. 55555
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Lone Star » August 27, 2018, 2:56 pm

Now Merkel doesn't want the Paris Climate Treaty enforced.

Over a year ago in June, Merkel and Macron proclaimed that the “the Paris Climate Treaty is irreversible and cannot be renegotiated.”

Trump knew it was crap and that it wasn't good for the US. That's why he got the US out.

A month later, Merkel bails on the primary treaty demands. By January 2018, she withdraws completely from the target emissions goal set for 2020.

MMCC is about money.

Reuters reports that Merkel believes swifter cuts to carbon emissions are counterproductive because they can't meet the lesser goals they set for themselves.

It's all about money, and the fact that the US isn't playing.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Udon Map » August 27, 2018, 10:54 pm

Lone Star wrote:
August 27, 2018, 2:56 pm
Now Merkel doesn't want the Paris Climate Treaty enforced.

Over a year ago in June, Merkel and Macron proclaimed that the “the Paris Climate Treaty is irreversible and cannot be renegotiated.”

Trump knew it was crap and that it wasn't good for the US. That's why he got the US out.

A month later, Merkel bails on the primary treaty demands. By January 2018, she withdraws completely from the target emissions goal set for 2020.

MMCC is about money.

Reuters reports that Merkel believes swifter cuts to carbon emissions are counterproductive because they can't meet the lesser goals they set for themselves.

It's all about money, and the fact that the US isn't playing.
I expected better from you, LS. But at least now I understand where you're coming from. The wording of this post is very close, way too close to be coincidence, to The Last Refuge/Conservative Tree House/Mark Bradman. Talk about a guy with an agenda. :roll:

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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Lone Star » August 28, 2018, 4:36 am

Don't know any Bradman.

Besides Reuters, you can find the same reporting of Merkel's balks on Politico, Bloomberg, EcoWatch, NewClimate.org and others.

Apparently, Germany is viewing it all as a greater leap than anticipated.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Udon Map » August 28, 2018, 8:10 am

Lone Star wrote:
August 28, 2018, 4:36 am
Don't know any Bradman.

Besides Reuters, you can find the same reporting of Merkel's balks on Politico, Bloomberg, EcoWatch, NewClimate.org and others.

Apparently, Germany is viewing it all as a greater leap than anticipated.
But not denying the Last Refuge/Conservative Tree House connection. Feel free to continue this conversation without me, LS. I'm out.

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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Lone Star » September 6, 2018, 7:06 am

Looks like Trump was correct again.

This time? The Paris Climate Agreement that Trump relieved the US from having to participate.

It's slowly unraveling due to the fact that it has always been a non-binding agreement, and the latest stage is all occurring right here in our own back yard of BKK. The UN is here making more speeches about saving the planet. In December, the hand-wringing will move to a meeting in Poland.

As reported by the South China Morning Post:
Time is running out to save the Paris Agreement, United Nations climate experts warned Tuesday at a key Bangkok meeting, as rich nations were accused of shirking their responsibility for environmental damage.
Yeah, we knew this. The West would be hammered for bucks by climate justice warriors, and the West refuses to be shaken down -- especially when some participants have no intention of reducing their emissions.

Coal is surging in use in countries like China and India, and they're not about to stifle their economies by restricting the use of coal. Russia is expanding their use of coal.

Brazil is talking about pulling out of the agreement.

The whole of idea of making MMCC something that has to be funded with more taxes on individuals and the wealthiest countries imposed upon to make it all better with money taken from its citizens has scam written all over it. The scam is that no one can say on what or how the money will be spent; and MOST importantly, what measurable results will be seen after the spending of billions of dollars. Scam.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by papafarang » September 6, 2018, 8:13 am

Looks like Trump was correct again. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Coal is surging in use in countries like China and India, and they're not about to stifle their economies by restricting the use of coal. Russia is expanding their use of coal.

How laughable , trump correct again ..on what :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .
china , their output is HUGE as the population is HUGE.
china ,india 36.28% of total world population, add in Russia and your probably hitting 40% ,then you compare it with the usa is 4.28% of the total world population, of course they use more :roll: . Trumps pulls out is pure financial greed , nothing to do with it is or isn't true, like saying Exxon Mobil don't believe in climate change either :lol: :lol:
so I will explain it AGAIN with a simple chart , that a 5th grader would understand.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Lone Star » September 6, 2018, 9:02 am

papafarang wrote:
September 6, 2018, 8:13 am
How laughable , trump correct again ..on what :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .
Getting out because it was designed as a scam on Western countries.
china , their output is HUGE as the population is HUGE.
china ,india 36.28% of total world population, add in Russia and your probably hitting 40% ,then you compare it with the usa is 4.28% of the total world population, of course they use more :roll: .
You're always trying to win an argument that isn't being made.

I wasn't comparing anyone's use of coal to anyone else. Go back and read it again.

The increased use of coal is causing countries to not be able to meet the carbon emissions goals (even though the US has met and exceeded their goals). Countries like China and India and Russia that ramp up coal usage affects the total atmospheric environment. If there are no reductions, the Paris Climate Agreement is spinning its wheels. Wasted time. Wasted money.
Trumps pulls out is pure financial greed , nothing to do with it is or isn't true, like saying Exxon Mobil don't believe in climate change either :lol: :lol:
It's Trump being responsible with tax revenue of American citizens. If you equate someone avoiding a bad deal that screws them over as being greedy, you need some definition remediation. I guess by your definition, every other country that is backing off from participation in this flawed document is also greedy? :D

America First. The money is better spent on other things than a climate agreement that was doomed to failure. Non-binding agreement. No one has to follow any guidelines. No one has to explain where the money will be spent. No one has to explain any measurable results from the spending of billions of dollars. Yeah, that'll work. 555 Scam.
so I will explain it AGAIN with a simple chart , that a 5th grader would understand.
A 5th grader may or may not understand that the chart has nothing to do with the failure of Paris Climate Agreement. However, many more 5th graders also try to win arguments that aren't being made with charts that have nothing to do with the point being made -- the agreement is flawed and non-binding. :D
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by papafarang » September 6, 2018, 9:37 am

And Trump knows what about climate change ? :lol: no he just pulled out because he wans to keep the edge . carbon footprint is about all of us, every individual but you wish to keep it to apples and oranges. look again at the numbers...or just keep waffling on , up too you
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Lone Star » September 6, 2018, 9:42 am

papafarang wrote:
September 6, 2018, 8:13 am
How laughable , trump correct again ..on what :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .
Getting out because it was designed as a scam on Western countries.
china , their output is HUGE as the population is HUGE.
china ,india 36.28% of total world population, add in Russia and your probably hitting 40% ,then you compare it with the usa is 4.28% of the total world population, of course they use more :roll: .
You're always trying to win an argument that isn't being made.

I wasn't comparing anyone's use of coal to anyone else. Go back and read it again.

The increased use of coal is causing countries to not be able to meet the carbon emissions goals (even though the US has met and exceeded their goals). Countries like China and India and Russia that ramp up coal usage affects the total atmospheric environment. If there are no reductions, the Paris Climate Agreement is spinning its wheels. Wasted time. Wasted money.
Trumps pulls out is pure financial greed , nothing to do with it is or isn't true, like saying Exxon Mobil don't believe in climate change either :lol: :lol:
It's Trump being responsible with tax revenue of American citizens. If you equate someone avoiding a bad deal that screws them over as being greedy, you need some definition remediation. I guess by your definition, every other country that is backing off from participation in this flawed document is also greedy? :D

America First. The money is better spent on other things than a climate agreement that was doomed to failure. Non-binding agreement. No one has to follow any guidelines. No one has to explain where the money will be spent. No one has to explain any measurable results from the spending of billions of dollars. Yeah, that'll work. 555 Scam.
so I will explain it AGAIN with a simple chart , that a 5th grader would understand.
A 5th grader may or may not understand that the chart has nothing to do with the failure of Paris Climate Agreement. However, many more 5th graders also try to win arguments that aren't being made with charts that have nothing to do with the point being made -- the agreement is flawed and non-binding. :D
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by papafarang » September 6, 2018, 10:31 am

again it's about greed , and yes non binding . if tomorrow the scientist said with 100% certainty that the world will be a nasty place to live in the future , there will be floods, droughts, storms famine and pestilence , Trump wouldn't give a MONKEYS NUTS ABOUT IT.

'A 5th grader may or may not understand that the chart has nothing to do with the failure of Paris Climate Agreement. However, many more 5th graders also try to win arguments that aren't being made with charts that have nothing to do with the point being made -- the agreement is flawed and non-binding'

oh so this thread is not about climate change then. it's about Trump ? no I follow the thread ,not whatever tangent 'whataboutism' you want to take it on , yes non binding, flawed is just your opinion
but your the one pointing out india and china ,whats that got to do with America pulling out ? you can't have this discussion both ways ...oh it's non binding ..but but whatabout china :lol:.

'It's Trump being responsible with tax revenue of American citizens'
:lol: now that is laughable, you ramble on about it's a conspiracy to collect carbon tax , but not a peep about the recent huge taxes piled onto American businesses by Trump :lol:

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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Lone Star » September 6, 2018, 10:46 am

papafarang wrote:
September 6, 2018, 10:31 am
oh so this thread is not about climate change then. it's about Trump ? no I follow the thread ,not whatever tangent 'whataboutism' you want to take it on , yes non binding, flawed is just your opinion
but your the one pointing out india and china ,whats that got to do with America pulling out ? you can't have this discussion both ways ...oh it's non binding ..but but whatabout china :lol:.
You miss the point yet again. You're arguing something that was not claimed in my post.

These things continue to happen AFTER the US left the agreement. My post was about the agreement continuing to collapse because India and China and Russia are ramping up coal use and not meeting their carbon emission targets - AND - other Western countries not wanting to cough up money to "developing countries" like India and China who aren't meeting targets.

Those two issues were just some of MANY of Trump's concerns and why the US is OUT of it. That's the connection.
now that is laughable, you ramble on about it's a conspiracy to collect carbon tax , but not a peep about the recent huge taxes piled onto American businesses by Trump
What "huge taxes piled onto American businesses by Trump"? You are seriously mistaken.

First of all, presidents don't create taxes. Congress creates taxes.

Secondly, the tax cuts proposed by Trump and passed by Congress REDUCED the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21%. Regulations were also massively cut to give businesses room to grow without long, drawn-out government delays to decisions and also allows them to write off many businesses expenses that were not allowed before. Those are just some reasons why the US economy is on fire.

Read up. :D

If you want to talk about your chart, then talk about it; but it has nothing to do with my post.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Udon Map » September 6, 2018, 11:17 am

Lone Star wrote:
September 6, 2018, 10:46 am
What "huge taxes piled onto American businesses by Trump"?
I'm just guessing (I haven't spoken with papafarang), but perhaps he's talking about the "tax" (in the generic sense) on businesses resulting from the tariff war. Not saying that it's wrong to impose tariffs on the goods of other countries to the extent that they impose tariffs on U.S. goods, but such a policy is not without consequences.

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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by papafarang » September 6, 2018, 11:43 am

Udon Map wrote:
September 6, 2018, 11:17 am
Lone Star wrote:
September 6, 2018, 10:46 am
What "huge taxes piled onto American businesses by Trump"?
I'm just guessing (I haven't spoken with papafarang), but perhaps he's talking about the "tax" (in the generic sense) on businesses resulting from the tariff war. Not saying that it's wrong to impose tariffs on the goods of other countries to the extent that they impose tariffs on U.S. goods, but such a policy is not without consequences.
exactly Udon map, call it tax, call it tariffs, call it sanctions . but whatever you call it . the same thing . china won't have to pay a dime extra , but Americans consumers will. china is a developing market . and instead of America trying to work out how they can sell more to the Chinese , they go for their own consumers.
the Chinese ain't worried , if they want Levi jeans they just buy Chinese made ones . note china only slapped taxes on finished goods so they still buy cheap cloth from the states , they still sell finished levi's to America for the same price. it's only americans that have to pay more . that my friend is called being taxed . imagine being stupid enough to tax raw materials that you need for your own industry , and the opposition just taxes your finished high end goods , then you manage to persuade your own consumers that your doing them a favor .
Chinese imports continue to increase , and the extra tax will go to the consumer , meanwhile the Chinese are not going to crap their pants over having to pay a few dollars more for a bottle of jack are they.
simply put tariffs will raise billions for the American government and the money will come strait out of American consumers pockets …. so lets get back to carbon tax being a gigantic con to get tax revenue :lol:
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Lone Star » September 6, 2018, 12:02 pm

papafarang wrote:
September 6, 2018, 11:43 am
exactly Udon map, call it tax, call it tariffs, call it sanctions . but whatever you call it . the same thing . china won't have to pay a dime extra , but Americans consumers will. china is a developing market . and instead of America trying to work out how they can sell more to the Chinese , they go for their own consumers.
the Chinese ain't worried , if they want Levi jeans they just buy Chinese made ones . note china only slapped taxes on finished goods so they still buy cheap cloth from the states , they still sell finished levi's to America for the same price. it's only americans that have to pay more . that my friend is called being taxed . imagine being stupid enough to tax raw materials that you need for your own industry , and the opposition just taxes your finished high end goods , then you manage to persuade your own consumers that your doing them a favor .
Chinese imports continue to increase , and the extra tax will go to the consumer , meanwhile the Chinese are not going to crap their pants over having to pay a few dollars more for a bottle of jack are they.
simply put tariffs will raise billions for the American government and the money will come strait out of American consumers pockets …. so lets get back to carbon tax being a gigantic con to get tax revenue :lol:
So now the chart is gone that had nothing to do with my post, and you've moved into tariffs in the ClimateGate thread. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I guess you're looking for a different argument to win, but you'll have a hard time with this new argument too. :D

Businesses don't absorb added costs to their goods and services. They rarely even absorb local and federal taxes into their goods and services. They pass them on to consumers and into the total cost of the product/service. The consumer then decides whether or not the higher cost is worth it. No skin off the nose of the business or corporation. If the consumer wants to pay MORE for Chinese products, that's their decision. I would believe that most Americans can do comparative shopping, but everyone has different needs and looks at the value of an item differently. :)

It's no different for the expat who purchases something from their home country instead of buying it locally in Thailand. The expat consumer considers need and value and whether or not it's worth the added cost to pay the VAT and/or customs fees. For some, they spend the money. For others, they don't.

The biggest problem that the US has with China is theft of technology and other products.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by papafarang » September 6, 2018, 1:09 pm

the point was a reply to "what taxes " in relation to your carbon tax conspiracy theory.

"Businesses don't absorb added costs to their goods and services. They rarely even absorb local and federal taxes into their goods and services. They pass them on to consumers and into the total cost of the product/service. The consumer then decides whether or not the higher cost is worth it. No skin off the nose of the business or corporation. If the consumer wants to pay MORE for Chinese products, that's their decision"

not much of a business person are you , it's raw products , not Chinese goods, I can't think of any consumer needing 100 tons of steel, but he might need a car made from that steel...you know those American made steel products … not Chinese products.
Aircraft tires. consumers are unlikely to be buying tyres , but they might need a plane ticket
• Nuclear reactors . domestic nukes :lol:
• Boat motors . consumers are unlikely to be buying boats , but they might take a boat ride
• Aircraft engines and engine parts . you know many aircraft owners :lol:
• Air and gas compressors, which are used in various goods like refrigerators .up goes the price of an American manufactured fridge

• Industrial heating equipment .consumer will pay more as the factories still needs heating
• Scales, mostly for weighing large industrial equipment. I can see consumers boycotting these :lol:

I would go on but not got all day , but I think you get the drift. joe public will foot the bill as all of these "Chinese" good the consumers are buying . to me it looks like all the things needed to build products are on the list . finished Chinese consumer goods, do yo know any one who owns a Chinese car ? :lol: your having a laugh

• Cranes and other "lifting equipment"
• Bulldozers, backhoes, tampers, boring machines, and other large construction vehicles
• Oil and gas drilling platform parts
• Plows, mowers, combine harvester-threshers, and other large agricultural vehicles
• Dairy milkers, chicken incubators, and other livestock equipment
• Machinery for foods processing, including meat processing and fruit processing
• Machinery for making paper cardboard and other paper products
• Parts of printers and copy machines
• Machinery for processing and molding metals or cement, and their parts
• Machinery for making glass products, including lightbulbs
• Machinery for making rubber or plastic goods
• Ball bearings
• DC and AC generators of various sizes and power levels
• Electricity transformers
• Industrial magnets
• Lithium batteries and other batteries
• Industrial ovens and furnaces
• Radar and radio equipment
• Parts for televisions, video-recording equipment, and similar video products
• Electronic traffics signs
• Electrical equipment such as resistors and circuit breakers
• LEDs
• Trains and rail parts
• Large vehicles using both diesel and non-diesel fuel
• Some cars and trucks, motorcycles, helicopters, airplanes, and spacecraft
• Microscopes and telescopes
• Lasers
• Imaging and navigational equipment
• Medical equipment such as X-rays and pacemakers
• Scientific equipment such as pressure gauges and spectrometers
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by Lone Star » September 6, 2018, 2:37 pm

papafarang wrote:
September 6, 2018, 1:09 pm
the point was a reply to "what taxes " in relation to your carbon tax conspiracy theory.

. . .
Make all the lists you wish. The US makes all of that and is one of few self-sufficient economies in the world.

Carbon taxes are real, and the US and Canada have both tried to buffalo their citizens into buying into that hoax -- along with other countries worldwide.

No evidence that tariffs on aluminum and steel have hurt the US economy. In fact, more jobs have been created in the US.

In addition, you grossly underestimate Americans' loyalty to American products and "America First." Americans will pay more to support their own.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by papafarang » September 6, 2018, 3:37 pm

"Make all the lists you wish. The US makes all of that and is one of few self-sufficient economies in the world."
And last months 50 billion in trade deficits proves America is self sufficient :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
self sufficient countries don't have deficits

i'm afraid that's trumps list not mine I did not make the list, and if America is self sufficient in all these products then how can they put tariffs on 35 billion dollars of imported products that they don't import anyway :lol: , oh I see they will buy American made aircraft tyres.. at a much higher price... so the price of a ticket will go up .
As I explained , it's a tax on consumers, and then you agree. then you disagree which is it because consumers don't buy Chinese products , American companies buy Chinese products to build things ,they then export those goods or sell to joe public

"Businesses don't absorb added costs to their goods and services. They rarely even absorb local and federal taxes into their goods and services. They pass them on to consumers and into the total cost of the product/service. The consumer then decides whether or not the higher cost is worth it. No skin off the nose of the business or corporation. If the consumer wants to pay MORE for Chinese products, that's their decision. I would believe that most Americans can do comparative shopping, but everyone has different needs and looks at the value of an item differently"

how many different ways can I explain it as you don't seen to grasp these FACTS . consumers don't buy Chinese products why can't you get out your head . it's not complicated . it's like i'm using a computer made in china, with American chips inside , china to carry on selling the computers decided not to tax the chips as it would make my laptop more expensive .
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