Islamic State on the March

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Earnest
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Islamic State on the March

Post by Earnest » August 31, 2014, 7:01 pm

430xc wrote:This really makes me feel very concerned about why moderate muslims are not denouncing, rejecting and stopping these radicals.
Me too.

It's the same in the UK, where the Muslim establishment maintain a low key when it comes to discussions on radicalisation. Similarly, their opinions are strangely constrained when it comes to discussion on the recent convictions of Pakistani (I suspect Muslim too) men involved in abusing underage girls. The PC Brigade accused investigators of racism when they began to probe into these issues.

Am I digressing? Not in my view. All these issues are related.

One thing that currently p!sses me off about Islamic radicalisation in UK are the apologists that blame it on young Muslims being disaffected - as if it's the fault of a larger British society. That's cr@p, it's the inability of an Islamic immigrant culture to integrate with the rest of us because of their intransigent attitudes and values. Female genital mutilation and honour killings are two such examples.


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Islamic State on the March

Post by noosard » August 31, 2014, 7:13 pm

Australia has the same problem
import these loonies in the name of multicuturism
works wonders

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Islamic State on the March

Post by 430xc » August 31, 2014, 9:09 pm

Seems the PC Brigade (including Barack Osama -- errr sorry, Obama) is afraid to say that this is a religion related thing and try to push it off as an "ideological" problem. Truth is that if it is just ideological, radicals would be less willing to martyr themselves. They believe that their god is with them and supporting them in their twisted ideas.

This is a religious problem. The radicals very clearly tell the world that they intend to base their government, culture and life based on their warped version of Islam. No separation of church and state.

I really wish the media and Washington DC deadbeats would acknowledge this for what it is -- a religions problem. Maybe they feel they will get a few more votes this way.

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Islamic State on the March

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » August 31, 2014, 9:38 pm

Earnest wrote:
430xc wrote:This really makes me feel very concerned about why moderate muslims are not denouncing, rejecting and stopping these radicals.
Me too.

It's the same in the UK, where the Muslim establishment maintain a low key when it comes to discussions on radicalisation. Similarly, their opinions are strangely constrained when it comes to discussion on the recent convictions of Pakistani (I suspect Muslim too) men involved in abusing underage girls. The PC Brigade accused investigators of racism when they began to probe into these issues.

Am I digressing? Not in my view. All these issues are related.

One thing that currently p!sses me off about Islamic radicalisation in UK are the apologists that blame it on young Muslims being disaffected - as if it's the fault of a larger British society. That's cr@p, it's the inability of an Islamic immigrant culture to integrate with the rest of us because of their intransigent attitudes and values. Female genital mutilation and honour killings are two such examples.

Yes, and there is the news out of the north of England in which a number of Pakistani male muslims raped, terrorised and brualised a number of young boys and girls, some of the victims were as young as 11 and 12, over a period of ten years or so. Apparently, the local council did not see fit to intervene as they were afraid the PC crowd would attack them for picking on the perps for racist sentiments. Even the article failed to mention the rapists were Pakistani and muslim. Instead they were referred to as Asian, which made me at first wonder why would Chinese men do this.

Here is the article,

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/27 ... ort-finds/
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Islamic State on the March

Post by KHONDAHM » September 2, 2014, 7:28 pm

Earnest wrote:"We don't have a strategy yet."
President Barack Obama spoke a great deal about Syria, Iraq and the Islamic State (IS) in Thursday's press conference, but these six words are dominating the non-beige-suit-related discussion among US politicians and pundits...The line was part of the president's response to a question about whether he needs Congress's approval to "go into Syria". It seemed a frank admission that the administration is grappling with how to engage its military against rebel forces less than a year after it had all but decided to bomb the Syrian soldiers fighting them.....Others defended the president's words, arguing that the US should not commit to military action without carefully considering the consequences.
Source:BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-28977365
The video:

http://bcove.me/hqp6jv2z

As you correctly emphasized, the administration is giving it careful thought and acting behind the scenes before announcing anything publicly. A stark contrast to Republicans (McCain, the wannabe, for example) who not too long ago were berating Obama for not arming ISIL/S to fight Assad. Now the same Republicans are saying we should kill them all. Thank the maker of your choice that Republicans are NOT in charge of our nation's foreign policy...

Audio interview regarding McCain:
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/02 ... re-madsen/
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Islamic State on the March

Post by Earnest » September 2, 2014, 11:22 pm

I see it too much, Khondahm, reaction rather than a proactive policy or strategy. The West needs a coherent strategy for the Middle East.
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Islamic State on the March

Post by Astana » September 3, 2014, 9:13 am

Interesting article in British newspaper the Guardian...

To really combat terror, end support for Saudi Arabia
Ramped up rhetoric on security makes no sense so long as the west cosies up to dictatorships that support fundamentalism


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... amentalism

The so-called war on terror is nearly 13 years old, but which rational human being will be cheering its success? We’ve had crackdowns on civil liberties across the world, tabloid-fanned generalisations about Muslims and, of course, military interventions whose consequences have ranged from the disastrous to the catastrophic. And where have we ended up? Wars that Britons believe have made them less safe; jihadists too extreme even for al-Qaida’s tastes running amok in Iraq and Syria; and nations like Libya succumbing to Islamist militias. There are failures, and then there are calamities.

But as the British government ramps up the terror alert to “severe” and yet more anti-terror legislation is proposed, some reflection after 13 years of disaster is surely needed. One element has been missing, and that is the west’s relationship with Middle Eastern dictatorships that have played a pernicious role in the rise of Islamist fundamentalist terrorism. And no wonder: the west is militarily, economically and diplomatically allied with these often brutal regimes, and our media all too often reflects the foreign policy objectives of our governments.

Take Qatar. There is evidence that, as the US magazine The Atlantic puts it, “Qatar’s military and economic largesse has made its way to Jabhat al-Nusra”, an al-Qaida group operating in Syria. Less than two weeks ago, Germany’s development minister, Gerd Mueller, was slapped down after pointing the finger at Qatar for funding Islamic State (Isis).

While there is no evidence to suggest Qatar’s regime is directly funding Isis, powerful private individuals within the state certainly are, and arms intended for other jihadi groups are likely to have fallen into their hands. According to a secret memo signed by Hillary Clinton, released by Wikileaks, Qatar has the worst record of counter-terrorism cooperation with the US.

And yet, where are the western demands for Qatar to stop funding international terrorism or being complicit in the rise of jihadi groups? Instead, Britain arms Qatar’s dictatorship, selling it millions of pounds worth of weaponry including “crowd-control ammunition” and missile parts. There are other reasons for Britain to keep stumm, too. Qatar owns lucrative chunks of Britain such as the Shard, a big portion of Sainsbury’s and a slice of the London Stock Exchange.

Then there’s Kuwait, slammed by Amnesty International for curtailing freedom of expression, beating and torturing demonstrators and discriminating against women. Hundreds of millions have been channelled by wealthy Kuwaitis to Syria, again ending up with groups like Jabhat al-Nusra.

Kuwait has refused to ban the Revival of Islamic Heritage Society, a supposed charity designated by the US Treasury as an al-Qaida bankroller. David Cohen, the US Treasury’s undersecretary for terrorism and financial intelligence, has even described Kuwait as the “epicentre of fundraising for terrorist groups in Syria”. As Kristian Coates Ulrichsen, an associate fellow at Chatham House, told me: “High profile Kuwaiti clerics were quite openly supporting groups like al-Nusra, using TV programmes in Kuwait to grandstand on it.” All of this is helped by lax laws on financing and money laundering, he says.

But don’t expect any concerted action from the British government. Kuwait is “an important British ally in the region”, as the British government officially puts it. Tony Blair has become the must-have accessory of every self-respecting dictator, ranging from Kazakhstan to Egypt; Kuwait was Tony Blair Associates’ first client in a deal worth £27m. Britain has approved hundreds of arms licences to Kuwait since 2003, recently including military software and anti-riot shields.

And then, of course, there is the dictatorship in Saudi Arabia. Much of the world was rightly repulsed when Isis beheaded the courageous journalist James Foley. Note, then, that Saudi Arabia has beheaded 22 people since 4 August. Among the “crimes” that are punished with beheading are sorcery and drug trafficking.

Around 2,000 people have been killed since 1985, their decapitated corpses often left in public squares as a warning. According to Amnesty International, the death penalty “is so far removed from any kind of legal parameters that it is almost hard to believe”, with the use of torture to extract confessions commonplace. Shia Muslims are discriminated against and women are deprived of basic rights, having to seek permission from a man before they can even travel or take up paid work.

Even talking about atheism has been made a terrorist offence and in 2012, 25-year-old Hamza Kashgari was jailed for 20 months for tweeting about the prophet Muhammad. Here are the fruits of the pact between an opulent monarchy and a fanatical clergy.

This human rights abusing regime is deeply complicit in the rise of Islamist extremism too. Following the Soviet invasion, the export of the fundamentalist Saudi interpretation of Islam – Wahhabism – fused with Afghan Pashtun tribal code and helped to form the Taliban. The Saudi monarchy would end up suffering from blowback as al-Qaida eventually turned against the kingdom.

Chatham House professor Paul Stevens says: “For a long time, there was an unwritten agreement … whereby al-Qaida’s presence was tolerated in Saudi Arabia, but don’t piss inside the tent, piss outside.” Coates Ulrichsen warns that Saudi policy on Syria could be “Afghanistan on steroids”, as elements of the regime have turned a blind eye to where funding for anti-Assad rebels ends up.

Although Saudi Arabia has given $100m (£60m) to the UN anti-terror programme and the country’s grand mufti has denounced Isis as “enemy number one”, radical Salafists across the Middle East receive ideological and material backing from within the kingdom. According to Clinton’s leaked memo, Saudi donors constituted “the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide”.

But again, don’t expect Britain to act. Our alliance with the regime dates back to 1915, and Saudi Arabia is the British arms industry’s biggest market, receiving £1.6bn of military exports. There are now more than 200 joint ventures between UK and Saudi companies worth $17.5bn.

So much rhetoric about terrorism; so many calls to act. Yet Britain’s foreign policy demonstrates how empty such words are. Our allies are up to their necks in complicity with terrorism, but as long as there is money to be made and weapons to sell, our rulers’ lips will remain stubbornly sealed.

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Islamic State on the March

Post by Earnest » September 6, 2014, 4:56 pm

British Prime Minister David Cameron and French President Francois Hollande, the leaders of Europe's main military powers, told Obama in private meetings that Washington had to do more than simply order air strikes on IS targets in Iraq and needed an overall strategy, European officials said.

"It can’t be just ‘let’s go and bomb a few targets and see what happens’," said one Western defence official familiar with the talks between the allied leaders.

France said this week it was ready to engage in all aspects of the fight against IS, including potentially military action. British Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said on Friday that London had not yet decided on any involvement in air strikes.

A British official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said: "There is a growing sense that this is going to take more than we are doing... but it needs to be a measured, cautious approach."
Source: Reuters.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/0 ... TM20140906

Work out the strategy and what the goal is. Most importantly, devise the exit plan should it all go wrong.

In equal measure, start stamping out radicalism back in the UK.
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Islamic State on the March

Post by redwolf » September 7, 2014, 12:56 am

Opinion only:

I'm less and less inclined to view ISIS as anything other than hardcore Sunni elements + Baathists (Al Douri, et al) avenging the occupation.

They're just murderers. Dispicable cowards really. I doubt it will ever stop until they've wiped the last Shia off the Earth. Interesting that they're got the full undivided attention of Iran. A far cry from the days of Ahmadinejad smarting off against us at every UN meeting.

Will the West get some respect for defending the Shia? Where is Muqtada al-Sadr now? Or will attempts at defending the Shia turn the venomous snake full around, resulting in terrible consequence for having done so?

If or if not to defend the Shia, then keep it simple:

Death to ISIS. Death to Al Qaeda.

I wonder if there is a new, modern Western concept for Jihad? [not crusade] These so-called 'fundamentalist terror fighters' should hope not.

Perhaps there exists a phrase in English, yet to be thought up, yet to be uttered, just as compelling, that would inspire western fighters not connected to any military or government, to emerge from every corner, to destroy the likes of ISIS, AQ, et al, simply on principle.

Hammurabi would dig it too. Like for like, like vs. like.

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Islamic State on the March

Post by rjj04 » September 7, 2014, 6:51 am

More opinion...

So "we" (USA) have spent how much money by meddling in the Middle East? Long term final bill is what, six trillion or so? When is it going to be enough? When the USA crumbles from its debt load? We bomb and destroy ISIS, then what? Who created ISIS... hmmmm? We created the monster buy feeding it, now we want to destroy it. Again and again. What is one definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

But, but, we need to secure the oil in the Middle East. Yeah, so I did an albeit simplistic calculation of how much it would cost to get rid of most of the oil, coal, and nat gas fired power generation facilities in the USA.... about six trillion dollars. So, we could have spent that money and now have nearly free electric power for factories and residences in America. Free power for business, how much GDP growth would that have spurred I wonder? But no, because the military industrial complex must continue to grow, transferring wealth to certain elites, we get more war. How is that war on terrorism going now? Like the war on poverty, drugs, cancer, etc. etc

After ISIS what then? Same same but different, as they say around these parts.

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Islamic State on the March

Post by Earnest » September 7, 2014, 4:51 pm

rjj04 wrote:Who created ISIS... hmmmm?
The Saudis.
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Islamic State on the March

Post by Astana » September 7, 2014, 6:42 pm

Earnest wrote:
rjj04 wrote:Who created ISIS... hmmmm?
The Saudis.
Certainly not money from hostages.

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Islamic State on the March

Post by rjj04 » September 7, 2014, 8:51 pm

So none of the aid that went to the Syrian "rebels" ended up with this ISIS group? The western powers are not in bed with the Saudis? The invasion of Iraq did not open Pandora's Box... I see. I guess the Saudis think their shiny new fence along the Iraq border will keep the monster out

....more opinion

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Islamic State on the March

Post by Earnest » September 7, 2014, 10:42 pm

I think you read too much into other people's responses.

Just an opinion... :lol:

You mention monsters, this piece from the Belfast Telegraph is very informative. It tells of how the Saudis supported Sunni insurrection only to have it backfire.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opini ... 35038.html
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Islamic State on the March

Post by tigerryan » September 7, 2014, 11:02 pm

The "End Game" for dealing with ISIL is simply a fully functioning self cleaning oven.... turn up the heat and shut the door. The fact that we don't know who they are or how many there are does not change the way you make grease spots of any targets that present itself as ISIL or any other dubious looking cat that is carrying a weapon of any sort. The US can then support the opposition only going home to clean weapons and prepare for stupid to show his head again. It is important that our finest have the opportunity to sharpen skills and develop their war craft on occasions. The animals in animal land have for the most part keep animal behavior within the fenced area. I will support any US politician that advances our technological war fighting capabilities while allowing our soldiers complete authority to develop rules of engagement and standards of conduct on the battlefield. This religious war will last our lifetimes I am not afraid because we will win and they will die either way they will continue to live in a -----.

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Islamic State on the March

Post by Earnest » September 7, 2014, 11:19 pm

You still need a strategy, old chum, and who's going to pay for it all? We Little Englanders need a solution sooner rather than later what with Johnny Foreigner climbing the fences at Calais.

The problem is that the troops get tired of it all, don't they. I have pals who are on their 11th or 12th tour of Afghanistan (Brits do between 2 and 6 months at a time in opposition to US troops that do 12 month tours) and that's after doing Iraq too. It's getting to be a bit of a ball ache.

Sh!thole? Yes. It was the first thing I could smell when I stepped off the jet at Basrah - human faeces - not pleasant in hot weather. [-(
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Islamic State on the March

Post by tigerryan » September 7, 2014, 11:52 pm

No Earnest you do not a strategy or a plan or a roadmap that my entire point. What you need is fear.

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Islamic State on the March

Post by rjj04 » September 8, 2014, 6:59 am

Earnest wrote:I think you read too much into other people's responses.

Just an opinion... :lol:
Most probably sir.

I'm just looking at the issue from a wider perspective. The fallout at home. Before there is more talk of bombing this group or that, and regime change over there, there needs to be massive change at home... a complete reset!
I guess that is off topic, so I'll go back to listening mode :) Carry on.

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Islamic State on the March

Post by Earnest » September 9, 2014, 4:43 am

No harm in voicing an opinion.
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Islamic State on the March

Post by Earnest » September 14, 2014, 5:08 pm

I read this quote today. It looks like the war didn't turn out to be as easy as these radicalised British Muslims thought it would be.
Disillusioned British jihadists who travelled to the Middle East to join Islamist fundamentalists are reportedly being punished after saying they want to come home.

A group of five Britons have reportedly been taken to "a punishment centre" after being stripped of their weapons in the Islamic State Stronghold of Raqqa, in Syria.

Following a bombardment of US air attacks, militant commanders in the area have become paranoid that spies could direct attacks, the Daily Mail reported.

The "formerly welcoming atmosphere for Western militants has now changed to suspicion" a source told the Mail.
Source: The Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09 ... _hp_ref=uk

There's a rather naive discussion now on the UK letting these people come back. Firstly, you can see that IS won't let them. Secondly, they made a choice and they have to live with it.
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