Wind Energy

Information on building a house, buying poperty and land, and all other general contruction topics...
bumper
udonmap.com
Posts: 8875
Joined: July 16, 2008, 1:54 pm
Location: London

Wind Energy

Post by bumper » January 11, 2012, 9:25 am

Average Wind Speed
Years on Record: 19 Chart This
ANNUAL JAN FEB MAR APR MAY JUN JUL AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC
mph 4 5 5 5 4 4 3 4 5 4 4 5 5


The wind seem to average between 3 to 5 MPH here in udon.

Would that be enough to generate enough power for low voltage pumps.



bumper
udonmap.com
Posts: 8875
Joined: July 16, 2008, 1:54 pm
Location: London

Wind Energy

Post by bumper » January 11, 2012, 9:35 am

Darn answered my own question. What I looking ofr is something to run to small air pumps to the fish farm ad avoid electrical costs:

Homeowners this fall will be able to buy a wind turbine at hardware stores that tackles the small wind industry's bete noire: slow wind.

WindTronics, based in Muskegon, Mich., has developed a wind turbine sized for individual homes that it says can operate at speeds as low as 2 miles an hour.

It will be sold for $4,500 as the Honeywell Wind Turbine and distributed through Ace Hardware stores in the U.S. starting in October. WindTronics developed the turbine and licensed the technology to buildings systems giant Honeywell.

The fan-like turbine will generate 2,000 kilowatt-hours in a year for a home with a very good--called Class 4--wind resource, according to the company. That's between 15 and 20 percent of the annual electricity consumption for the average U.S. home.

Turning a turbine inside out: rather than having power generation occur at a gear box in the shaft, WindTronic's turbine has magnets at the edges of the fan to generate a current.
(Credit: WindTronics)

The turbine is rated at 2 kilowatts, but WindTronics executives say that most turbines' rated capacities--the amount of power they can produce at a given moment--are misleading.

"We say if a turbine only works between 8 and 25 miles per hour, you have a very limited range of operation," said Brian Levine, the vice president of business development at WindTronics, a division of EarthTronics. "Our device is rated to address a wider range at the low and high end."

The 95-pound turbine, which is 6 feet in diameter, can be mounted on rooftops, attached to chimneys, or put on a pole. The company hopes to sell the turbines through Ace Hardware stores or through contractors--who are needed for the installation--to homeowners or businesses.

Spinning magnets
With people seeking out alternative forms of power generation, there's been a surge in interest--and sales--in small wind turbines in the past year. But it's still not clear that these small wind turbines are cost-effective enough to be used beyond a niche of green-minded buyers.

Two studies--one in Massachusetts and one in the U.K.--discovered that many small wind turbines far underperformed manufacturers' specifications.

The tests found that people often chose locations that didn't have sufficient wind or obstructions that blocked wind. In most cases, turbine makers rate products assuming a very good wind resource--anywhere from 12 to 25 miles per hour.

By using a novel design, WindTronics' turbine can generate electricity between 2 miles per hour and 45 miles per hour, the company says.

User avatar
BobHelm
udonmap.com
Posts: 18405
Joined: September 7, 2005, 11:58 pm
Location: Udon Thani

Wind Energy

Post by BobHelm » January 11, 2012, 9:37 am

This would be worth your while reading bumper, from the US gov site.
It is a pdf file though so will need something like acrobat to read it...
http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/pdfs ... _guide.pdf

There have been a few complaints in the UK that I have read about from people living near 'wind farms' who say that their lives have been made a nightmare from noise. I know you are probably not thinking of a commercial venture.. :D but it is worth investigating before going ahead with a turbine of any size I think...
http://cleantechnica.com/2008/08/18/win ... nd-health/

User avatar
JimboPSM
udonmap.com
Posts: 3474
Joined: July 4, 2005, 3:23 pm
Location: Isle of Man / Bangkok / Udon Thani

Wind Energy

Post by JimboPSM » January 11, 2012, 10:40 am

While a claim that it operates in speeds as low as 2 mph looks good on paper, I would strongly caution against being an early buyer until there is ample positive feedback proving that it works.

As the cost of energy has gone up so has the number of con artists offering to supply solutions.

The norm for conventional small wind turbines appears to be approximately 9 mph - to get down to only 2 mph is a quantum leap :-k

From the “Small Wind Turbine FAQ” section of a UK renewable energy site:
A site with an average wind speed of 4-5 meters per second is generally sufficient enough to make installing a small wind turbine worthwhile.

http://www.bwea.com/small/faq.html
As a ready reckoner, 4.5 metres per second is approximately 10 miles per hour.

It should be remembered that while any wind turbine in the Udon would need to be able to operate with very low wind speeds it would also need to be sufficiently robust to withstand the force of tropical storm winds.
Ashamed to be English since 23rd June 2016 when England voted for racism (and economic suicide).

Humiliated to have Johnson (a racist, serial liar and hypocrite) as UK Prime Minister.

User avatar
old-timer
udonmap.com
Posts: 2620
Joined: January 13, 2009, 12:36 pm

Wind Energy

Post by old-timer » January 11, 2012, 11:50 am

I've been looking at different ways to get an alternative source of electric to a residential project out in the sticks and am tempted with the idea of battery power produced by a solar electric system. Wind energy could be an option although as mentioned before it's not got much of a history outside mass commercial use and the average wind speeds in udon seem to be on the low side.
Here's a bit of info:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/31689.pdf

This kind of set up may be an option for low voltage pumps ?

OT........... \:D/

User avatar
maaka
udonmap.com
Posts: 2988
Joined: October 9, 2007, 6:03 am

Wind Energy

Post by maaka » January 11, 2012, 2:13 pm

never had a windmill, but my neighbours and others around me in NZ have had them..I doubt whether 2mph will give you stuff all, and agree with member who says give this new wind thingy time to find its faults before spending such so much for such a thing..we tend to buy the ones the go on the back of medium size sailing boats that you get at the marine hardware store,,has a blade about the size of a grammerphone record...they have a auto magnet shutoff, so when the wind picks up beyond the windmills capacity, it automatically switches off and locks..some have feathered blades which will only reach a certain wind speed before they fold up...thing I hate about them, is it costs to much what power you get out of them, if they are plastic the sun gets to them, they dont last long, and they make a ruddy noise that sometimes can be heard a fair way off..I was glad when my neighbours propeller flew off I can tell you...

for your pond, go 12volt solar, think like a farmer with an electric fence.. have one small panel ( tea tray size) on a post, with a car battery underneath inside a cupboard so is out of the sun, and a " Trace ' Controller /regulator Model C -30a, and your 12v pumps...easy to wire, can throw a switch in there somewheres if you want to switch the pumps on and off during the day...

User avatar
kumphawapi
udonmap.com
Posts: 59
Joined: March 11, 2011, 3:09 pm

Wind Energy

Post by kumphawapi » January 11, 2012, 3:07 pm

If the purpose is to oxygenate the water, then forget the technology. Get water plants growing in your pond, that grow submerged, and release oxygen directly into the water. Fewer fish per pond + weeds will probably be more cost effective than windmills or solar.

bumper
udonmap.com
Posts: 8875
Joined: July 16, 2008, 1:54 pm
Location: London

Wind Energy

Post by bumper » January 11, 2012, 6:33 pm

oxygenate, that is what I will be doing. That being said fewer fish is not the idea, we plan on selling them.

Cat fish you can sale at 90 to 120 days at a size the Thai's like about 8 or 9 inches.

oxygenating will allow us to grow more fish. One pond is already being oxygenated, 400 fish in it two died so far. Feeding twice a day at this point.

Thanks for information though.

The next pond will have 1500 Talapia in it. I already have the electric pump pond. But. if there is a better way to do it I;m all for it.

User avatar
parrot
udonmap.com
Posts: 9524
Joined: March 19, 2006, 8:32 pm

Wind Energy

Post by parrot » January 11, 2012, 7:48 pm

Bump, not to throw water on your catfish plan, but: we buy catfish fingerlings at 0.80-1 baht each. Figure on 5% dying when young. Then factor in twice daily doses of food for 90-120 days. Then selling at 60 baht a kilo at the market. The last time we bought catfish at the market, we ended up with about 9 fish in the kilo. If the pond is not next to your home, you'll probably need someone to guard the pond....else the neighbors will make off with your fish. Unless you plan on selling the fish yourself at the market, you'll end up selling them for less than the market rate. Factor in water, electricity/solar/wind, digging the pond, etc etc.
We still raise catfish in our backyard pond.....more for the fun of me doing some meditating with a bamboo pole in my hand and a red dragon fly poised on the tip of my pole, then for the economics.
Although, in the event of a major catastrophe, I suppose we'll have an extra source of food.
Oh yeah, if you're lucky, you won't have one of those large white heron-like birds swoop down and gobble up the fish while they're still young.
If you're going to compete with the professionals (the villagers), you'll need to keep your expenses and losses to an absolute minimum. If you're just doing it for fun, then nothing's lost.....and you'll enjoy the fruits of your labor.

bumper
udonmap.com
Posts: 8875
Joined: July 16, 2008, 1:54 pm
Location: London

Wind Energy

Post by bumper » January 12, 2012, 9:39 am

Thanks there is two meter wall going around the Rai now and we are working on house plans now. I don't plan on competing with Thai's that the wife's gig.

you won't have one of those large white heron-like birds swoop down and gobble up the fish while they're still young. Haven;t seen any yet.

On my end of the deal 500 a baht week profit is all I'm looking for and keeping myself busy.


We already have a Thai that will sale for us.

We got nailed the first time around, bought our first fish at the Government fishery, they put cat fish in with the Pla Nin accidently I suppose. So when pumped the second pound as we were expanding it. We had four very happy catfish. Since then we have developed better resources to purchase from.

I had a learning curve with investing in stocks here eventually I made good money. I don't see this as any different. I will make mistakes but eventually I will get it right. The business is my wife's not mine I'm just helping.

We have installed eight inch drains in the ponds so they don't flood over. Wire meshed so the fish don't go out the drain. Installed wire mesh fence completely around the pond.

What I'm trying to do is give the wife a way to supplement the VA money she will get upon my death. I'm hoping I will have a long time to learn before that happens LOL

I really don't care for fish I would like to grow fresh water prawn for myself. But, that is much more complicated then the fish.

If you check the farming section of T.V. you will find that there are guys making money doing this. They made a huge amount of mistakes in the process. I'm trying to learn from them, But, I still make mistakes.

We have an annual source of rice already through a co-op deal with our housekeeper. We intend to have a small garden for ourselves and have six fruit tress on the property so far.

I'm getting sala made between the two ponds that will be my bamboo pole and iced tea spot.

One of the hardest things I had to adjust to here was finding something to do with my time, day coming when i won't be able to make long distance trips on the bike and maybe even not being able to ride at all. I haven't made a long distance trip for over a year now. One thing for sure you want something to keep busy here.

So I look at this as being a positive in several ways. I will have home on a Rai of land 3 klm's outside of ring road with a small family business built in.

There is till another option I have friend whose ponds are sit up with solar. I'm a bit concerned about the wind factor here. But doing that is not jump change unless I;m living there I will just pay for the low voltage air pumps

When the house out there is finished then I sale this one and have a new home debt free.

So that is the overall plan how long will it take got no idea, in the mean time I go out there dream up projects fro myself and feed the fish.

I appreciate your advice. But, truthfully the fish aspect for the most part is already done.

Guys anyone know anything about growing fresh water prawns, The one thing throwing me now is they need a certain amount of brackish (Sea) water

bumper
udonmap.com
Posts: 8875
Joined: July 16, 2008, 1:54 pm
Location: London

Wind Energy

Post by bumper » January 12, 2012, 6:01 pm

Someone sent me some information via utube on a system that is manufactored in the U.S.. Look like a good system about $1500.00 But then your talking shipping and it is heavy. Not to mention what they might nail with import taxes.

Next month I will know how much it costs to l run a low voltage pump 24/7

I have friend that is heavy into solar in Chaing Mai, that might be abetter option. But they are high maintaince. so that electric bill have to be very high for me to consider it.

Parrot have you tried to add cat fish fingerlings in with your mature fish, if so do the grown fish eat them ?

After hearing your tale maybe I should be thinking more about getting them cooked at a talot better money that way I believe.

User avatar
rick
udonmap.com
Posts: 2505
Joined: January 9, 2008, 10:36 am
Location: Udon, or UK May-August

Wind Energy

Post by rick » January 13, 2012, 12:35 am

Some interesting things in this thread. Here's my own view on some of them.

1 Wind turbine - if it is to run a pump for aeration, not reliable enough here - the number of days with no wind is too high. Solar better bet (well, for daytime).

2. Plaa Duk do not need aeration at all, they can breathe air. If keeping other species, then ok you may need it.

3. Only 4 plaa Duk in pond, no plaa nin. May not have been the hatchery. Catfish fingerlings are very different and easily spotted. BUT Plaa Duk are also known as walking catfish because they can crawl between ponds. They may very well have migrated into your pond during the wet season; unless you have barriers around it. This is also an issue for your own Catfish - come wet season, they will grow legs and walk unless you put a barrier up.

How are you intending to feed your Plaa Nin? If with pellets, food costs will be high. If not needing a lot, try greenwater system for plankton or duckweed is another interesting food source (one i am experimenting with now on a very small scale).

User avatar
maaka
udonmap.com
Posts: 2988
Joined: October 9, 2007, 6:03 am

Wind Energy

Post by maaka » January 13, 2012, 9:21 am

in case there is any confusion..solar power does work at night too, and on cloudy days, because the power you use is coming from the batteries, not directly from the solar panels..its abit like a car..you can play the music with the engine off, and the battery will stay charged for a long period of time..once you start the engine up again the generator charges up the battery again, and then that night you can play the music again in the park while your sucking face with your babe..depending on how many batteries you have, depends on how long you can run you power applicances without any sunlight..but one has a volt meter on the wall inside the house,which tells you how the batteries are doing, and after awhile you get use to knowing when to your running alittle low and therefore should conserve solar power until the batteries are fully charged again..

bumper
udonmap.com
Posts: 8875
Joined: July 16, 2008, 1:54 pm
Location: London

Wind Energy

Post by bumper » January 13, 2012, 9:42 am

Having looked a friend's solar operation you have to stay connected to the grid. you also need real talent with electronics there a lot more components then the solar panels and batteries. He is using it for outside lightening. low voltage water transfer pimps and air pumps top his ponds. If he lived here in Udon where I could learn from him, I would go for it. But, he lives Chaing Mai. When it come to this kind of stuff I don't even speak the same language and wouldn't understand his instructions in writing. He was ship's engineer before he retired.

The other thing to keep in mind is theft, the batteries alone would bring a healthy price. I would neve consider it until we are living on the property.

User avatar
parrot
udonmap.com
Posts: 9524
Joined: March 19, 2006, 8:32 pm

Wind Energy

Post by parrot » January 13, 2012, 9:53 am

Good comment about the potential for outside fish coming into your pond during the rainy season. A friend of ours has a large pond in the middle of hundreds of rai of farmland. The pond dries up in the dry season, then fills during the rainy season. My friend never adds fish to the pond. Yet, at the end of the rainy season, the pond if full of many hundreds of fish, both very large and small. Mostly snakehead, but a variety of others.

If your pond is surrounded by rice fields and isn't protected from infiltration, you can expect to have at least some other fish enter your pond. Or worse, you can expect your fish to find an easy exit if the pond overflows.

bumper
udonmap.com
Posts: 8875
Joined: July 16, 2008, 1:54 pm
Location: London

Wind Energy

Post by bumper » January 13, 2012, 11:32 am

Ya that was a lesson hard earned, in the end the cost of fish is nothing, the first batch p put in 2000 600 baht. I have to a little more work on the small pond where I have gaps. That easy enough and all ready have the wire for it. But, I;m still looking for those birds.

I haven't sealed off the big pond yet that's for next month. Got the grass you pointed out planted for erosion.

Sala between the ponds is almost complete thatch Thai Style. It was interesting watching them build it. There is section marked off by Ucalopatist ( spelling got on idea ) That was used for the frame work. Interesting feeling seeing what you own being used for a productive purpose. Those bugger will grow back. Got short style type of bench. table for under it. I can almost taste that ice tea. I may need a bell for my bamboo pole

bumper
udonmap.com
Posts: 8875
Joined: July 16, 2008, 1:54 pm
Location: London

Wind Energy

Post by bumper » January 13, 2012, 5:57 pm

This is an interesting article indicates you can grow fresh water shrimp in the same water as the Nile Talpia which is what I believe we have here.

Using the green water method

http://www.agribusinessweek.com/freshwa ... -feasible/

User avatar
rick
udonmap.com
Posts: 2505
Joined: January 9, 2008, 10:36 am
Location: Udon, or UK May-August

Wind Energy

Post by rick » January 14, 2012, 6:23 pm

The Giant freshwater prawn (Machrobrachium rosenbergii) is farmed in Thailand and could be used. Only problem is the prawn larvae require brackish water so you cannot breed them in your pond; you would need to get them from a hatchery (or set up a hatchery yourself) but due to the salt requirement (and also fed Artemia as larvae) juvenile prawns for grow out are not cheap (maybe similar to fish fingerlings) also you need to find a hatchery. Also be aware big prawns will eat small fish.

You could try the local shrimp (like what you see in Pad Thai). They will breed in ponds here and will coexist with fish (although the fish will eat them if no cover). Mother-in-law catches these as a sideline from our fishing lakes and can get about 1 kilo a day when numbers good - but seasonally can be uncommon. You will not get rich but may supplement other income - or provide an occasional meal.

bumper
udonmap.com
Posts: 8875
Joined: July 16, 2008, 1:54 pm
Location: London

Wind Energy

Post by bumper » January 14, 2012, 6:58 pm

Rick I'm going to move this over to the new thread I started FFFF

I want to use that on since we are talking about fish a lot , thought it would be better and you will also be able to see the point I;m at and what I have done thus far. Hope to see you there.

User avatar
rick
udonmap.com
Posts: 2505
Joined: January 9, 2008, 10:36 am
Location: Udon, or UK May-August

Wind Energy

Post by rick » January 14, 2012, 8:40 pm

Yes, I realise it was drifting off topic, and will look up the other thread. To get this one back on track, one of the problems with small wind turbines is height above the ground. In the UK, considered a fairly windy country, a 1 kw turbine will only produce 1000 kwh per year - assuming it is about 15 metres above the ground. Unfortunately many people didn't realise that height was so important and many were attached to roofs at half that height (to avoid planning permission rules) - and they only produce half as much - if that. These systems can have payback times for installation costs of over 20 years. With the wind speeds here i think that would be far longer. Suppliers were also notoriously optimistic as to how efficient there systems were so that caused a bit of a backlash. Of course, commercial wind farms are only built in the windiest of places and rotors are often 50 metres or more above ground. I'm glad i did my research in UK and changed my mind about having one.

Solar power for a small system is pretty viable - (in Thailand, not the UK) as quite a bit of sun. Even in UK it works but installation there is expensive so only worthwhile if you get a government subsidy.

Post Reply

Return to “House & Land”