Solar Power

[rjj04]

all the bureaucrats have to have their chance to stamp the paperwork!

"Bureaucrats"? Where might they be? When I tried getting into the roof-top incentive program, all I encountered were PEA people. Had to hire a PEA engineer to help do the paperwork on "their" system layout. Had to go sit in a meeting and file the paperwork to PEA engineers and managers... if government bureaucrats were about, I didn't notice. PEA approved the inverter list (extremely slowly). Some inverters on PEA list were not on MEA list, and vice versa on MEA list but not PEA list... how can that be when they use the same equipment. Thousands of approved inverters on lists in Australia, California, Europe... but PEA had to go one by one and test each inverter... gee I wonder why. Can't put your panels on your carport roof.... must be on the house roof. Why, "because". Every damn excuse to slow things down.

In my opinion, the problem lies in giving legally mandated monopolistic power to a private company, in a country with corruption ripe everywhere. No way for "bureaucrats" to do anything meaningful, even if they wanted to, and could turn their noses up to the tea money. Either nationalize the grid, or open it to competition (ugh, even greater rats nest of wires... and the consummate electrocutions). Neither option will ever happen though.

ytrewq - good on you for having the drive to get that done (allegedly ).

[minimiglia]

With the crazy high prices here why bother? how many years to even break even?? I think never. what with falures and battery replacement etc etc, it clearly is not encouraged here with the electric monopoly.

[rjj04]

With the crazy high prices here why bother? how many years to even break even?? I think never. what with falures and battery replacement etc etc, it clearly is not encouraged here with the electric monopoly.

With grid-tie you don't need batteries. If you DIY purchase and install a grid-tie system, you can get a pay back in less than ten years easy, if they just let you use the grid as a battery (as many places around the world allow). If you DIY you will not get approved, at least from what I've seen you need to get a Thai company to handle the paperwork, and they will not do that unless they do the whole install (IMO).

[minimiglia]

So crazy high prices and totally not cost effective?

[glalt]

What do you mean no payback? If you jump through all their hoops, pay over the top prices for components and give a few under the table payments, then all you need is about ten years for your payback. That's provided nothing breaks down. Of course with the grid tie system, if the main power goes off, your system goes down with it and you have no power.

[ytrewq]

Payback on our 5 kw grid-tie is <7 years. Our system saves us on average ~15 THB/daylight hour (dust, clouds, heat, and other annoyances prevent max production savings of 22+ THB/daylight hour with 16 x 330 w panels). HOWEVER, the whole point of grid-tie is to spin the meter backwards to derive maximum savings. Right now, when the meter spins backwards, we save -4+ THB/Kw. When PEA replaces our mechanical meter with a digital meter, they will control how much, if any, savings we get. They proposed "< 2.8 THB/Kw", which is why I said it is a ripoff rate. One doesn't install grid-tie to power the house. One installs grid-tie to derive maximum savings (or, in theory, a small income).

[minimiglia]

I am quite happy with my generator to cover blackouts. I canmot see how any of you will ever get to a breakeven point?

[glalt]

All joking aside, I am quite pleased with my solar systems. The original system powers my computer, printer and LED lights. No worries about lightning strikes or power outages.

I had a security camera system installed. When the power goes off the camera system goes off also. The second system at the house powers that system 24/7.

I should add that the first system uses four 65 AH AGM batteries for 260 AH total. The second system is using four 6 volt 225 AH golf cart batteries. For the 12 volt system, that gives me 450 AH. I am a bit disappointed that system is not quite enough to run my isolated 10 amp grid breaker. If I take the large refrigerator off that circuit, it runs the TV and all the lights in the house plus the router and camera system. I have a double throw switch set up that allows me to simply change from the grid to battery power. I prefer to do it that way because I don't discharge my batteries more than 50 percent. When the grid goes down, a simple flip of the switch puts the 10 amp house breaker on the battery bank.

I also have another small system on a farm that is off the grid. That system (250 AH batteries) runs lights, a TV, a satellite dish and a couple of small fans. Both that system and the original house system are more than four years old with no problems.

Will those systems ever have a payback? I really have no idea. The point is that I don't care. I get a lot of satisfaction when the neighborhood is dark and I am on the computer plus my wife has lights and is watching TV. Just yesterday the grid power went down three times. The grid power reliability here is worse now than when I went solar. If the grid power were more reliable, I probably wouldn't wouldn't have installed the second house system. I really like having my computer totally off the grid. No surges, lightning strikes or brownouts.

[rjj04]

I am quite happy with my generator to cover blackouts. I canmot see how any of you will ever get to a breakeven point?

In this thread we have gone over the financials many times. With grid-tie, and the ability to just feed the grid and take back what you put in, you can get a pay back within ten years easily. If you were lucky enough to be one of the few who got into the rooftop incentive program and you are receiving the contracted 7THB per KWh produced, then you could be getting your money back a lot sooner than that!!!

From what I understand of ytrewq's system, he will get a good return. For me, I was stupid, I admit. When PEA locked my meter I went a bit ballistic and bought an off-grid inverter/charger and a lot of batteries and thought I'd try to pay PEA as little as possible... but it will cost me a lot more than PEA (obviously I am but a speck on their financials). On the other hand, I never worry about brownouts or blackouts... EVER!!!

minimiglia, You have a generator, that's great. The problem with a generator is that it is not "uninterruptable". I have a ton of small SBCs running an alarm system, with a couple dozen cameras about. If every time the power dropped out my LAN went down, I'd have chaos with boot cycles. My security system would be worthless... thieves could just pull the power from the meter when we are not home and proceed with their deeds. So, for me to have a system that can't be knocked out (well quite difficult without an EMP or other serious jolt to it). I have heard of thieving gangs cutting the power to an entire neighbourhood in order to cut the lights and security systems. Almost impossible to do that to my house So, it is not all about "payback", there are other concerns.

A generator with gen-set? (forgot what they call them... auto-start and ATS), coupled to a UPS system with a large inverter but only a small battery capacity (since the generator could recharge them periodically) would probably be a much smarter option than what I did... c'est la vie. Has anybody seen a generator that is combined with a large inverter and small battery, as one unit? Then all you would need to do is put an ATS in at your panel, and presto an un-interruptable generator? Never seen these though.

[ytrewq]

We have a 7.5 kw gen with ATS. All critical electronics and lights are on UPS boxes.

Blackout happens, we often aren't aware until we hear the generator running. Brownouts can be a pain, sometimes. The ATS won't switch over unless a threshold (dunno specifics) is crossed.

Our area has gotten quite a few upgrades over the past few years. Last year, the generator kicked in maybe 6-7 times for <30 hours total. Most times were pre-announced over the morning village speaker.

Generator with ATS was a great investment! We can even run a 12k BTU A/C unit in the fitness room, open the door, and keep the whole first floor comfortable on a 35-40 C day even without unplugging other stuff.

[rjj04]

We have a 7.5 kw gen with ATS. All critical electronics and lights are on UPS boxes.

Blackout happens, we often aren't aware until we hear the generator running. Brownouts can be a pain, sometimes. The ATS won't switch over unless a threshold (dunno specifics) is crossed.

Our area has gotten quite a few upgrades over the past few years. Last year, the generator kicked in maybe 6-7 times for <30 hours total. Most times were pre-announced over the morning village speaker.

Generator with ATS was a great investment! We can even run a 12k BTU A/C unit in the fitness room, open the door, and keep the whole first floor comfortable on a 35-40 C day even without unplugging other stuff.

Seems like you have a pretty good set-up there.

What made you go for a few? UPS boxes, versus one large inverter/UPS, did it just evolve that way? Prices are very cheap now on a fairly large inverter/ups. I found that the small UPS boxes you buy in the stores hereabouts don't last very long, what with all the glitches on the power-lines here their batteries die quickly.

How long does it take your generator to start and put power through the ATS? 5 minutes? I suppose in cold climates it can take a while, here it shouldn't be too bad.

[ytrewq]

There is a 10 second delay before the ATS unit tries to start the generator. Then, it takes a few more seconds for the generator to crank and start up. I ditched the small start battery for a primo car battery just...because. Kicks right over usually on the first try.

The multiple (3?) 600-750 watt UPS units are more than adequate. Pretty much everything is LED. Laptop, tablets, and phones have their own batteries. No need or reason to have motorized appliances (water pumps, water heater, refrigerator, ceiling fans, etc.) on a battery. They can all wait for the generator to start - except the gate and garage motors which are both connected to a single 1.4 kw computer UPS. Ceiling lights also need generator. We can easily get by using our phones and/or lights running off UPS power for hours, if need be. We also keep a couple of those strap-on LED headlamps charged for walking around outside at night or during overnight rainstorms.

The UPS batteries conk out every 2-3 years, but are easily replaced by Amon (sp?) for ~500 thb per. A pittance, really.

[glalt]

After going through a small UPS and a large UPS, I am of the opinion that you are better off building your own. A decent size deep cycle battery, a small inverter and an automatic small battery charger will keep your computer off the grid. You would find it very expensive and difficult to find a UPS with a 200 AH battery. You will pay a bit more for grid electricity but power outages will be a thing of the past. Since your battery is constantly charging except for during power outages, it should last for many years.

[ytrewq]

Trump and his war on the US middle class just raised solar panel import tariffs to 30%.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5a66 ... mg00000009

That should create an inventory glut and lower prices here in Asia. So, wooot wooot for anyone reading this thread and looking to start or expand this or next year. I suspect with the lowered prices, Asia will be able to easily absorb the supply glut and lead the way in solar adoption.

On the update front: Yep, the saga continues. We need yet another signature (*gasp, shock and amazement*). They are demanding an engineer to sign off on something clearly not within his perview...and so that probably won't happen. Stay tuned!

[glalt]

Most of Thailand's green power talk is just that, talk. They seem to put many obstacles in the way. They are on the way of building another coal fired generator. Were the government to promote solar power or other green power, it is doubtful that they would need the coal fired plant. TIT.

[rjj04]

When I think about abrupt climate change, and the likelihood that our species will make it to the end of this century I get pretty despondent. That being said, if what I just read here...

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/11/so ... exclusive/

is correct (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), there would seem to be hope after all. The article states that a top solar power analysis group, in 2015, made a very optimistic projection that the average price per watt of solar would go down from the then $0.62/watt to $0.21/watt by 2040. So now, in 2018, according to that forecast the price would be around $0.58/0.57? The amazing thing is that it looks like the average price per watt in 2017 was... drum role please... $0.37/watt. When I read this I had to stop and and read it again a couple more times. The actual quote is

“We have pegged the typical factory-gate module price at the end of 2017 at about 33 cents per W, meaning a price around 37 cents per W in most markets."

So, if this is true, it seems that within the next couple of years it might be cheaper to abandon a brand spanking new natural gas power generation plant and just go build a new solar farm. Yes, I know, there is the baseload/storage problem, and some places don't get much solar insolation, so this would not happen in every instance, but as the Lithium-ion giga-factories ramp up and battery storage cost goes down over the next decade we could see an unimaginable transition to solar w/storage happening. This assumes that the fossil fuel industry with all its power doesn't throw a wrench in the works somehow. They certainly have been doing whatever they can up until now so who knows.

Remember, this is happening with very little technological progress. If perovskite panels become a reality, in a decade you could see solar $/watt below $0.20. At that point solar power is virtually free.

I am still trying to get my head around the implications of all this. Anyway, good news for once. With Trump seemingly selling-off the USA to the fossil fuel industry, I'll take good news wherever I can find it

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?opt ... ival=21136

Now, when are these prices coming to Thailand.... 2025?

[glalt]

I have no problem with solar panel prices as they are. I'm working on another small project and just ordered a 315 watt panel. the price was 5,850 baht. Of course there is VAT of 7 percent on top of the cost plus delivery. If Thailand were serious about solar power, they would give you a break on components. Eliminating the VAT would help a little. I would agree that grid tie systems are not the answer. Storing the energy is the problem.

What I am really looking forward to is a high tech battery breakthrough. Batteries are the shortest lived and most expensive part of off grid solar systems. My AGM battery bank is getting weaker. they have been online for four and a half years. I have moved two 125 AH flooded batteries from the farm and am now using them at the house. The four 65 AH batteries are going to the farm. I bought the AGM batteries because they were in the house. I think the flooded batteries will last longer and are about half the price of the AGM batteries. The disadvantage of the flooded batteries is that you have to keep them topped up with water (monthly) and they should be kept outside. My wife is not thrilled to have my batteries on the front porch but she is happy to be able to have lights and watch TV when the grid is down. There are four 6 volt 225 AH golf cart batteries and now the two 12 volt 125 AH batteries on the porch.

[Barney]

Got my new to to buy now.
Will be looking into it when I get back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuZFG1R0hyY

[glalt]

Amazing technology. Unfortunately I would expect it would be well beyond cost effective. A seven year payback is usually stated with standard systems but even with my standard off grid systems, I think the payback will be much longer, mainly because of replacing expensive battery banks.

In the past several days the grid has been down at least ten times. Usually for a couple minutes but yesterday for a couple hours. That is my reason for an off grid system.

[minimiglia]

From what I see you will never ever reach break even point, total falacy?