Water line and meter questions (town water)

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NongKhaiLee
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Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by NongKhaiLee » December 24, 2019, 1:39 pm

We live in the NongKhai suburbs and have been on our own well water for the past twelve years. In that time it has eaten countless faucets and fittings and plugged countless shower heads with calcium.
The town water supply has been piped into our community but is 120 meters from our property. I have been told it will cost 30,000 baht to have them run the water line down the soi to our gate and that they will run a 1/2" poly pipe.

While it's more expensive than I expected to run the pipe, it's not a huge issue. The 1/2" poly size is a bigger issue. We have three buildings with a total of eight complete bathrooms with showers. Currently I have two 1" supply lines running from my storage tank with no problems.

A neighbor told me the 1/2" line wouldn't be a problem, he said the water system here has so much pressure it "will shoot 30 meters in the air" but I'm having trouble believing that, maybe it's not a problem for a local who is used to dealing with water issues I would guess also.

I am thinking of seeing if we can pay extra to have a 1" poly pipe run down the alley from the street, but I have been looking around here on my morning walks and haven't seen anyone with a water supply line or meter larger than 3/4", so i am wondering about availability. Has anyone here had any kind of experience with this stuff?

Thanks in advance, Lee



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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by rickfarang » December 24, 2019, 1:52 pm

Well, if the line is not very long so the friction would be low and the water tower that supplies the pressure is a bit more than 30 meters, I could understand where your neighbor is coming from. A 30 meter column of water would develop abut 45 pounds per square inch of static water pressure. That very well against the 10 PSI static water pressure I measured around my house.

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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by pf-flyer » December 24, 2019, 2:43 pm

We had a similar problem several years ago. We live in a rural village of 300 people. The water system in the village has 2” plastic distribution pipes. The tap is a 1/2 “plastic pipe. And a water meter with ½” fittings. We put in a 2000 liter storage tank and connected to the village water system with ½” plastic pipe. The pressure from the village water system filled the storage tank. I installed an electric pump on the outlet of the 2000 liter storage tank which pumps the water into our house. The system worked fairly well for several months. Then the village water system started to have regular problems with the entire system being shut down for days at a time for repairs because the distribution pipes were just laid down on top of the ground and the Cattle, Water Buffalos were frequently tramping and breaking the distribution pipes. We ending up drilling our own well and installed a deep well pump on the well and now we just pump our well water into the 2000 liter storage tank. We have calcium issues with our plumbing also. We just deal with it buy soaking our showerheads in distilled vinegar. Our most annoying issue is iron bacteria from our well water that causes a black slim build up in the water storage tank and in the house plumbing. We shocked the well with chlorine but the black slime returned in a month or so. I just deal with the black slime build-up by cleaning the 2000 litter storage tank every 6 six weeks or so.
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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by laksnrub » December 24, 2019, 3:36 pm

Use the town supply 1/2 as a drip feeder into your existing tanks, at 120mt run at 40psi you would get about 12 Lt a min flow, less the run through the meter and then to your house any bends and friction, if less than 40 PSI down grade the flow rate from 12L min, even 5ltm more than enough to fill your tanks with a float valve

Only way to find out is a pressure reading from where they are going to tap off the main from, If it was my house and wanting the best I use 42 mm poly for 120mt, even then you might not get the flow rate you want,

Back in Oz 2019 our price excavate with backhoe 600mm deep trench install 40mm black poly back fill trench, install plastic marking tape 200mm above pipe, clean make good, pipe to property boundary, no meter supply or connection, for a 120mt job it would cost you $8.40 per meter.=B 20,000 to do your job for you, Doing it the Thai way 3 men x 1 day work= 3 man day x B500=B1500, back hoe 4 hours @ B2000hr= B8000 total labour machine=B9500 plus the poly pipe 120mt
@B80 Approx B10,000 That's about B20,000 total, if the ground is soft 3 men could dig a 300mm deep trench in a day lay the pipe that puts it about B12,000 total cost just some thought

Remember to ask all the Questions, are you or will you be the only one to use the pipe, or in the future will there be other properties along your water path that may want to connect into the all ready install 1/2 pipe that you paid for.

You could tell the local council you want the water meter 10 mts past the connection point, after they finished you install the new pipe the last 110mt to you property at your cost cheaper. ask all the questions

Go with the first option 1/2 B30000 and use it to drip feed your tanks, contact me PM I give a free site visit and chat, always looking for some thing to do.

And use a water softener system stops calcium, on my construction I collect all the roof rain water into 50,000 tank and the over flow goes into a pond, we collect over 250,000 lt off our roof every year in Udon the tank has the water filter and softner on it the pond water is used for garden car washing

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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by bluejets » December 29, 2019, 6:16 am

3/4" might be enough.
If you work it out , it is double the volume ability to that of 1/2" pipe.
1/2" for example (R2.Pi) is 0.25 (radius) * 0.25 * 3.142 = 0.196 sq inch
3/4" ..... 0.375 * 0.375 * 3.142 = 0.441 sq inch.

Over whatever length it is double volume.
e.g.....(for 1/2" and 100 inch length of run)... 100" * 0.196" = 19.6 cubic inch

(for 3/4").....100" * 0.441" = 44.1 cubic inch

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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by glalt » December 29, 2019, 8:48 am

Our village water supply line is also 1/2 inch. It supplies two storage tanks, one is 1,800 liters and the other is 1,500 liters. Both have float valves. Both tanks are normally full and we have no problems. Sometimes the village water has problems and is off for a day or two.

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sometimewoodworker
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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by sometimewoodworker » December 29, 2019, 9:57 am

Rather than the numbers of buildings or showers you have, the number of people is much more important and gives an easier to work out supply need.

For example 16 people (8 showers) will need about 3,200 litres per day (standard 200l per person) to supply that you need a constant 24 hour flow of 2.2 litres per minute. You would want storage of an absolute minimum of 4,000 litres, much more if the supply is variable or unreliable. (Apropos of nothing We have around a 6 week storage capacity)

The chart under gives the pressure drops for different flow rates and pipe sizes. It is reasonably clear that a 1” pipe would be much better. Any short restrictions on the pipe such as the meter or connection to the mains will have a small but probably unnoticeable effect
A277A781-C761-4E8A-9424-BBD04548BE52.jpeg
Example 1: 7l per minute through 120 metres of ½” pipe = 7.2 psi drop, 1” pipe = 1.6 psi drop

Example 2: 19l per minute through 120 metres of ½” pipe = 42 psi drop, 1” pipe = 3.2 psi drop

Don’t forget that though the pressure today may be good it’s only going to get worse as more people use it.

My personal option is make sure that the supply is only for you and get a 1” pipe. The price already seems to be about 50% over a reasonable price if it’s a simple trench.
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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by NongKhaiLee » December 30, 2019, 10:22 am

Sorry for the delay in answering...the wife and I took a group on a hike up Phu Kradueng...arrrgggghhhh!

Thanks so much for all of your replies, you guys are great! We have friends from back home coming to visit in a couple of weeks and they will help me revamp the system. I'll let you know what we do and how it works out, but I do plan on incorporating the advice given here.

Last week I built a water tank stand and roof because the current tank is sitting on a broken cement pad and has no roof. I am leaning towards using a storage tank and pumps for the town water, I think the neighbors may be right and there may be a lot of pressure and supply now because it's a new system, but I'm thinking it may not stay that way for long.
I am also thinking about trying to think of a way to keep the system "switchable" so that I can use the old well system if the town water shuts down for an extended period, but my current 1,500 Liter tank only has one water inlet and the tank has a float type switch system for the pump instead of one of those ballcock type floating shut-off valves...I may have to put in another tank I guess.

My tank is about ten years old, does anyone know if any of the newer tanks have dual inlets? (Just in case)

Thanks,
Lee

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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by sometimewoodworker » December 30, 2019, 11:08 am

NongKhaiLee wrote:
December 30, 2019, 10:22 am


I am also thinking about trying to think of a way to keep the system "switchable" so that I can use the old well system if the town water shuts down for an extended period, but my current 1,500 Liter tank only has one water inlet and the tank has a float type switch system for the pump instead of one of those ballcock type floating shut-off valves...I may have to put in another tank I guess.

Lee
You only need/want 1 inlet

There is no problem having both a float switch and a ballcock in the one tank. Our day-to-day tank in the roof has both, the maximum minimum electric switch that controls the fill pump by our ground level storage tanks, into the top of the tank (no water), and a ballcock that controls the village water feed, into the side of the tank, this means that we don’t notice if the village supply is turned off unless we happen notice the tank filling fast.

The important point is to have the direct feed (ballcock) set to fill the tank to a higher level than the max/min electric switch.

It is no problem to cut an extra hole in either the top of the tank for the electrical switch or side for the float (ball) valve.

2 or 3 NVRs will control the water flow into the tank. We have a single pipe coming into the tank, if the village water is off the ball valve will be permanently open as the pump float is set for a lower top fill level. If the village water is on the minimum (turn on level) is never reached so the pump never turns on.
All of these operations are totally automatic we need to do nothing. I have mentioned before that once the village people asked us why we didn’t need to get the water tanker in as the whole village had been without water for almost 2 weeks, we hadn’t noticed but when I checked our ground level storage was down to about 5k litres
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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by NongKhaiLee » December 31, 2019, 9:12 am

Thanks...makes perfect sense!

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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by sometimewoodworker » December 31, 2019, 3:52 pm

NongKhaiLee wrote:
December 31, 2019, 9:12 am
Thanks...makes perfect sense!
Good as I wasn’t sure I had explained it in an understandable fashion. In fact I would have to go back and diagram my supply if I ever need to make additions as it certainly works perfectly and needs no maintenance, but I had to think carefully about flow and where to put the NVRs to avoid problems.

If you get a NVR in the wrong place you can find that the pump never turns off DAMHIKT :oops:
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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by NongKhaiLee » January 27, 2020, 10:24 am

O.K., so I built a tank stand to get the tank up off the broken cement pad it was on, and to give us enough height to have at least some gravity flow in case of power outage. The stand also provides at least a little protection from the weather

I bored another hole in the top of the tank to allow for a ballcock float valve for the city water, I also adjusted the electric float switch which controls the well pump to half tank level so the well will act as a backup in case the city water inflow is inadequate.

I installed a water spigot in each yard for irrigation and connected them to the inlet pipe to the tank from the well pump, I also installed a shut-off valve above that connection and a bypass switch which cuts the electric float switches out and turns the well pump on continuous (until the pumps built-in pressure switch cuts it off).

Today we will go and pay the deposit to have city water run to our gate, the technician was supposed to come and make a site visit the week before last and tell us what size of pipe they would run down our alley and how much it would cost. We didn't see them come and they didn't call, so we called them and they said the technician did come but did not call us or talk to us. They said it will cost 22,000 baht for the pipe and installation (I measured it off at 140 meters).

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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by NongKhaiLee » February 4, 2020, 10:39 am

Water Department came and ran the pipe the 140 meters from the main street to our gate. They showed up with 3/4" poly even though the contract said 1". They went and got 1". A couple of elderly fellows dug down and spliced into the 4" main at the street, then the foreman hooked up our 1" pipe and used it to water down the digging area so the ground would be softer.
They ran it to the gate and then installed a 3/4" water meter on our 1" pipe, said it was the largest they had. I didn't push the issue because of us having a storage tank, I also figured that I didn't want to make a fuss unless it really created a problem. It's above ground so can be changed at a later date if needed.
The next day I was watering the trees and plants with the well water and the water turned brown and then quit.
I took the pipes off from the well to the pump and saw that the inside of the pump was about half plugged with rust, also the tank on the bottom of the pump was nearly rusted through, so I bought a new deep well pump and pipes and replaced it all. I checked the water levels on the 20 meter long pipes when I pulled them up and saw they were wet about 8 meters down.
The next day I was watering and once again the water petered out. Looks like we might be watering all of the trees and plants with the city water after all! (at least until we get some rain)

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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by sometimewoodworker » February 4, 2020, 1:51 pm

NongKhaiLee wrote:
February 4, 2020, 10:39 am
They ran it to the gate and then installed a 3/4" water meter on our 1" pipe, said it was the largest they had. I didn't push the issue because of us having a storage tank, I also figured that I didn't want to make a fuss unless it really created a problem. It's above ground so can be changed at a later date if needed.
There is no point in changing the ¾” water meter, it’s effect on the flow and pressure is virtually impossible to detect. The water just speeds up on the way through. Had you accepted the ¾” pipe that would have had a noticeable effect as friction losses get quite high (per 100 feet) at under 1” with reasonable flow rates.
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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by parrot » February 4, 2020, 3:15 pm

NongKhaiLee wrote:
February 4, 2020, 10:39 am
Water Department came and ran the pipe the 140 meters from the main street to our gate. They showed up with 3/4" poly even though the contract said 1". They went and got 1". A couple of elderly fellows dug down and spliced into the 4" main at the street, then the foreman hooked up our 1" pipe and used it to water down the digging area so the ground would be softer.
They ran it to the gate and then installed a 3/4" water meter on our 1" pipe, said it was the largest they had. I didn't push the issue because of us having a storage tank, I also figured that I didn't want to make a fuss unless it really created a problem. It's above ground so can be changed at a later date if needed.
The next day I was watering the trees and plants with the well water and the water turned brown and then quit.
I took the pipes off from the well to the pump and saw that the inside of the pump was about half plugged with rust, also the tank on the bottom of the pump was nearly rusted through, so I bought a new deep well pump and pipes and replaced it all. I checked the water levels on the 20 meter long pipes when I pulled them up and saw they were wet about 8 meters down.
The next day I was watering and once again the water petered out. Looks like we might be watering all of the trees and plants with the city water after all! (at least until we get some rain)
Every few years, especially during prolonged droughts, I drop a line down our well with a heavy nut attached to the end. When it stops, I figure that's the bottom of the well. Then I redrop it with the nut and a small piece of rubber foam. When it stops, I figure that's the top of the well. Over the years, there's what seems to be only a fraction of a difference in depth of the water. I wonder if there's a more reliable way to check.......in case my measurements are inaccurate.

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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by NongKhaiLee » February 4, 2020, 9:01 pm

Sounds like a good way to measure. I'll mess with it tomorrow, my plan is to drill a hole in the top of the well cap (I covered it with a 4" pvc pipe cap) and to weld 6mm rebar lengths end to end and make a dipstick. But I may also try your method, problem is the pump is a deep well pump with two pipes and I'm not sure if I can get a straight drop past the pipes with a piece of foam on a string.
I should have spent more time gauging the water level before I put the pipes back in. I don't fancy trying to pull 20 some meters of pipes back out.

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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by bluejets » February 5, 2020, 6:38 am

Manometer tube would seem a "simple" and accurate differential measurement alternative.
Would need to be installed correctly.

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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by NongKhaiLee » February 5, 2020, 7:53 am

I'm not so sure how one would observe a Manometer tube while it was maybe 10 meters or more down a well. Maybe I don't understand?

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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by sometimewoodworker » February 5, 2020, 9:52 am

NongKhaiLee wrote:
February 5, 2020, 7:53 am
I'm not so sure how one would observe a Manometer tube while it was maybe 10 meters or more down a well. Maybe I don't understand?
I don’t think that using a Manometer tube is possible or if possible it certainly isn’t a standard method.

You can use an air line meter which will measure the pressure differential or one of the line methods.
Water_Level_Guide.pdf
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Re: Water line and meter questions (town water)

Post by NongKhaiLee » February 5, 2020, 4:53 pm

I opted for welding three lengths of 6mm repar pieces end to end and then ran my newly made dipstick down the well. I marked the rod at the top of the well casing when it bottomed out so as to have a total depth of the well. Then I pulled the rod up and when I got to the water line on the rod I marked that to get the water level inside the well.

I pulled the whole length of rod out and measure the spots I had marked. When I compared the total well depth to the length of the suction pipes that I had just replaced when replacing the pump, I found that the foot valve (jet-valve assembly) was only one meter off the bottom of the well. I was actually hoping that I would find that I had installed it wrong all those years ago and that I could extend the pipes further down the well, but alas...it appears the well is set up properly and just not recovering well, the water level was actually 14 meters off the bottom, but disappears quickly when the well is in use.

If I use 5/8" garden hoses I can water the entire property without running out, but if I up the size it runs out. I am thinking even this will not last long...we still have months to go until the rainy season.

A huge thanks to everyone for all their input!
Lee

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