power fluctuations

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tamada
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by tamada » September 17, 2020, 7:58 am

And with "...You may like to reassess your "very good electrician"!..." and "when i look at your picture i think the fuse box is put together by a 2 year old...", I declare the UM consumer unit wars thread officially open!

"...can you post a picture of your box without the cover plate so we can see all connections..."

No, you can't look up my kilt!



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kopkei
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by kopkei » September 17, 2020, 9:36 am

yes stww, i also saw all this , i maybe even think that the unusual suspect at the left has a bridge connections in between the switch handles , should be logic but is not clear on the picture, my point is al power outlets on 1 breaker of 20A ? , is it a thais home?, otherwise beware using multiple appliances on 1/20A breaker (max 4600W )... ;)

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Barney
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by Barney » September 17, 2020, 9:44 am

Bandung_Dero wrote:And I might like to add:-

See the photo of my home made, 19 year old domestic distribution panel and note the protection.

Waiting ---- Waiting ---- Waiting ---- ......

Yes, it contains double pole isolation and circuit protection. Both Active and Neutral are disconnected through a trip or for maintenance. Why? After all those years the so called "very good electricians" have still not been educated and the Farang are still totally confused. Whats the point of throwing a circuit breaker to do some work just to find it's the neutral that has been isolated and the active is still live?

Isn't it any wonder so many Thais (and a few Farang) are being killed every year.
Board looks ok BD.
Perhaps after 19 years a couple of upgrades could be looked at.
The orange incomer main switch has been wrongly confused by some here on UM as a CB.
It is a 80A main switch only. If you turned them off you would switch both.
But once again UM posters have gone off on a different tangent and missed the main reason for your post, that being to highlight your double pole CBs. A very good idea, and one I might now consider, especially with as you mentioned all the different core color coding of cable in Thailand. An added safety measure for sure.
Reminds me of a mate who once said he had a problem with his caravan electrics he had just purchased 2nd hand. Asked me to check for him. Short story is I was sat on my a..e through an electric shock.
The extension cord was plugged into his van and the main incomer switch was off. As soon as I touched the metal door I copped it big time.
Caravans must have a double pole incoming switch to prevent wrongly wired leads, found out his did not, just a single pole switch.
Unfortunately the electric lead he had plugged in was internally terminated in the plug with the wrong polarity, hence the live wire was directly connected to the neutral on the plug making a direct connection to the neutral and earth bar. Hence again the frame was live. The single pole switch was only disconnecting the neutral. If it was connected via a double pole switch then all would have been good prior to me checking the circuits in the panel.
Painful lesson learned that day for me.
So thanks again BD for the timely tip on double pole switches and breakers.

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sometimewoodworker
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by sometimewoodworker » September 17, 2020, 12:42 pm

Bandung_Dero wrote:
September 16, 2020, 3:54 pm
And I might like to add:-

See the photo of my home made, 19 year old domestic distribution panel and note the protection.

Waiting ---- Waiting ---- Waiting ---- ......

Yes, it contains double pole isolation and circuit protection. Both Active and Neutral are disconnected through a trip or for maintenance. Why? After all those years the so called "very good electricians" have still not been educated and the Farang are still totally confused. Whats the point of throwing a circuit breaker to do some work just to find it's the neutral that has been isolated and the active is still live?

Isn't it any wonder so many Thais (and a few Farang) are being killed every year.
Your 19 year old domestic distribution panel is somewhat confusing. You say note the protection but there seem to be a few unusual points, and possibly missing protection.

It’s a square D unit that is designed for plug in units though you seem to be using DIN rail ones with some tape along the top blanking off some space.

The 2 80A switches on the left will isolate whatever they are connected to but if it’s line and neutral they should be ganged together and they don’t provide over current protection.

The right hand unit “top floor power” is unclear as to what it is, is it a switch? Or an MCB with no power rating?

The ECLB seems designed for industrial use as it asks for a rather massive HCR fuse protection, that doesn’t seem to be in place. It is an RCD not an RCBO so doesn’t give over current protection

It is also unclear if this is the main incoming CU or if it’s a sub panel. If it’s the main incoming then to quote a grue
Crossy-TV wrote: If it is direct off the incoming supply there is NO overcurrent protection (the left units are switches not MCBs). This is a potentially dangerous (explosive) situation.
The use of dual pole MCBs is unusual but no problem

My main incoming CU uses dual pole MCBs for the incoming power and outgoing distribution to sub panels.
FWIW This is my incoming and distribution box
AAEB4F32-62E8-42FE-8D17-308249636DB7.jpeg
AAEB4F32-62E8-42FE-8D17-308249636DB7.jpeg (20.13 KiB) Viewed 510 times
A picture of your unit with the cover off would be interesting
Jerome and Nui's new househttp://bit.ly/NJnewHouse

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Bandung_Dero
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by Bandung_Dero » September 17, 2020, 5:02 pm

Problem is you people have no idea what it is all about!

Cct breakers are installed to protect the CABLE not the appliance and sized as such.

My 80 amp isolators are there for my 15 mm 2 feeders.

F@£k it's hard. No helping some people.

Never mind, Multinationals including Chevron Thailand paid me the BIG bucks to sort their crap out in the gulf for 3 years in the early 2000s.

Think I know what's going on!
Sent from my 1977 Apple II using 2 Heinz bake bean cans and piano wire!

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Re: power fluctuations

Post by pal52 » September 17, 2020, 5:51 pm

Bandung_Dero wrote:
September 17, 2020, 5:02 pm
Problem is you people have no idea what it is all about!

Cct breakers are installed to protect the CABLE not the appliance and sized as such.

My 80 amp isolators are there for my 15 mm 2 feeders.

F@£k it's hard. No helping some people.

Never mind, Multinationals including Chevron Thailand paid me the BIG bucks to sort their crap out in the gulf for 3 years in the early 2000s.

Think I know what's going on!
Well said Bandung Dero.

I read these threads and laugh sometimes but electricity kills especially if you do not know what you are doing.

You have all sorts of comments from UNQUALIFIED posters such as woodworkers and salesmen.
Bluejets tried to educate some of them but they know better than qualified electrical people.

They rely on Google to give comments but none of them are qualified electricians or engineers with practical experience.

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sometimewoodworker
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by sometimewoodworker » September 17, 2020, 6:09 pm

Bandung_Dero wrote:
September 17, 2020, 5:02 pm
Problem is you people have no idea what it is all about!

Think I know what's going on!
Well a qualified electrical engineer disagreed with that assumption, but whatever, be happy doing your thing.
Jerome and Nui's new househttp://bit.ly/NJnewHouse

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tamada
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by tamada » September 17, 2020, 6:33 pm

Sparkies, eh? Next thing you know, they'll be boasting how long their ground rod is... and demanding pictures.

pal52
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by pal52 » September 17, 2020, 7:19 pm

sometimewoodworker wrote:
September 17, 2020, 6:09 pm
Bandung_Dero wrote:
September 17, 2020, 5:02 pm
Problem is you people have no idea what it is all about!

Think I know what's going on!
Well a qualified electrical engineer disagreed with that assumption, but whatever, be happy doing your thing.
And who is the well qualified Engineer.
IT IS CERTAINLY NOT YOU.
I remember a saying from my apprenticeship days when I attended Technical College.

DO NOT TRY TO BE A JACK OF ALL TRADES & MASTER OF NONE,
Learn your theory of electrical engineering then you can sort out the problems you will encounter in your career.

jackspratt
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by jackspratt » September 17, 2020, 7:26 pm

Love the "electric" threads on UM.

They seem to have more spice, and contrary views, than even the EPL or Trump threads. :D

glalt
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by glalt » September 17, 2020, 8:01 pm

It should be easy to tell black from white, shouldn't it? It may not be that simple. My breaker box has a few white wires connected to the breakers and black wires connected to the common. Simple, just swap the wires, right? I went a step farther checking before changing anything and found those circuits had the white wire connected to the line on the outlets, thus the correct polarity. Since all the old wiring is two wire, with the two wire outlets if the plug is reversed, so is the polarity. Only the new house wiring is three wire, those are earthed. Yes, the house should be rewired but it is an old house and stringing new three wire cables would be a major problem and a big job.

My wife's uncle is a good and fussy electrician. He installed the breaker box and wired it for my garage/workshop. Inside the breaker box is a work of art. All wires and precisely bent and neatly routed. He advised just leaving the house electrics alone and grounding the major appliance chassis to their own ground stake. He obviously didn't wire the house so many years ago.

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kopkei
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by kopkei » September 18, 2020, 9:41 am

i have never understood this need for qualified people to do each individual job ,even i am even becoming also an old fart, always eager to learn some new skills , before my move to Los i had no clue how to build a home/swim ...you should see what we have achieved over the years learning something new all the road ...not all best skills are rewarded with the official diploma , but can come from collected working experience over the years ...
and not always work done by supposedly qualified personnel comes out better as non qualified ones ,depending what personnel you are able to find (surely in LOS)
this said back to electrics ...
nothing complicated (if you are able to learn it , not all are subjective to this) to domestic home wiring ...
here is a picture of the fuse box of our daughters 4,5x10m bungalow ...
DSC01039.JPG
same standards as in our home
all 2,5 sq.mm cable
brown = line , blue = neutral, and sorry black as earth ,due to emptying my stock as this will be our last build
16sq.mm copper power line/ earth cable
8x20A breaker
rcbo nano ple42c50
all done by non qualified personnel (?) ...
so any comments of wrong doing always appreciated, as we are not shy to learn more to improve
my advice to all is my life advice too, do not over complicate things when they can be done simple .. ;)

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kopkei
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by kopkei » September 19, 2020, 7:35 am

update as promised, so this night a lot wind and first price again , electric failure 02.00AM , but the item bought to protect the fridge is working perfect...
DSC01085.JPG
.
58V at the inlet and 000 at the outlet ,under voltage light blinking ,measured also with multi-meter to be sure, so item is doing what it is bought for not leaving any power under 200V (as preset by me) trough ...so it is a simple not complicated inexpensive solution to our problem,now with this 58V our internet still work as i am able to post this ;)

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tamada
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by tamada » September 19, 2020, 9:24 am

AlexO wrote:
September 17, 2020, 7:01 am
tamada wrote:
September 15, 2020, 10:42 am
@kopkei, I just read the full specs for your device on lazada and the over/under voltage max time delay is BOTH only 10 seconds which isn't enough for your fridge and air conditioner. The over current delay protection is adjustable to 512 seconds.

No problem using for protection with other appliances with non-inductive loads such as the computer, rice cooker and small fans. Larger motors like the washing machine may have issues since motors and compressors are inductive loads.
So my Hitachi (instant restart)automatic washing machine is going against all the principles of physics and just when does a "small fan" morph into a fan capable of being called an inductive load.
Your "Hitachi (instant restart)automatic washing machine" isn't so much about it defying physics as you displaying your ignorance... but I digress. All motors and compressors are inductive loads regardless of size, ie. small motor = small load and (in case you haven't worked it out yet) large motor = large load. Are you still with me? The point you missed is the cost and risk of damage to a "small fan" may not warrant the cost of it having any added over/under protection other than its on-off switch.

Now, where's yours?

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Bandung_Dero
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by Bandung_Dero » September 19, 2020, 4:18 pm

tamada wrote:
September 19, 2020, 9:24 am
Your "Hitachi (instant restart)automatic washing machine" isn't so much about it defying physics as you displaying your ignorance... but I digress. All motors and compressors are inductive loads regardless of size, ie. small motor = small load and (in case you haven't worked it out yet) large motor = large load. Are you still with me? The point you missed is the cost and risk of damage to a "small fan" may not warrant the cost of it having any added over/under protection other than its on-off switch.

Now, where's yours?
AND - Wot he is saying can be easily demonstrated if you have a standby generator to power your home:- Just by turning on all of your Fluorescent Lights, which are a Capacitive Load, will make the generator much happier by reducing the power factor closer to unity (1.0 - which is the ideal), you can hear it in the generators operation AND see it in the fuel consumption.

A huge percentage of the general power grid is subjected to Inductive Loads, the power authorities design their power lines (mainly the high tension distributors) to introduce the Capacitive effect (power lines set a certain distance apart) using that to make the grid more efficient. In some cases they have to use capacitors in their switch yards.

That's me done - be safe!
Sent from my 1977 Apple II using 2 Heinz bake bean cans and piano wire!

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Re: power fluctuations

Post by BKK-Udon » September 19, 2020, 4:54 pm

kopkei wrote:
September 19, 2020, 7:35 am
update as promised, so this night a lot wind and first price again , electric failure 02.00AM , but the item bought to protect the fridge is working perfect...
DSC01085.JPG.
58V at the inlet and 000 at the outlet ,under voltage light blinking ,measured also with multi-meter to be sure, so item is doing what it is bought for not leaving any power under 200V (as preset by me) trough ...so it is a simple not complicated inexpensive solution to our problem,now with this 58V our internet still work as i am able to post this ;)
Nice simple device, and must be at least 99% better than feeding 58 volts into the refrigerator, even if the cutoff is not immediate!

I have some questions for our resident experts. Why do our refrigerators not just die a horrible death with how often the PEA feeds them 58-120volts during our frequent brownouts?

I have seen over/under cutoff breakers made to mount in the CU, main box for 600-900Bt. Any reason Kopkei’s cheaper unit is not just as good. I don’t recall the cutoff delays, but they were adjustable. https://shopee.co.th/เฟสโปรเทคชั่น-WIP- ... 3518527355

Would it be better to get a bigger “whole house” unit like I have seen displayed at global house for a pretty big pot o’ Baht?

About the time I decide back up power would be a waste of money due to infrequent outages, power drops out twice in a week for 6-8 hours! What is your advice about a generator and setup to run fridge, 1 AC, some electronics.

Thanks!

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Re: power fluctuations

Post by AlexO » September 19, 2020, 8:47 pm

tamada wrote:
September 19, 2020, 9:24 am
AlexO wrote:
September 17, 2020, 7:01 am
tamada wrote:
September 15, 2020, 10:42 am
@kopkei, I just read the full specs for your device on lazada and the over/under voltage max time delay is BOTH only 10 seconds which isn't enough for your fridge and air conditioner. The over current delay protection is adjustable to 512 seconds.

No problem using for protection with other appliances with non-inductive loads such as the computer, rice cooker and small fans. Larger motors like the washing machine may have issues since motors and compressors are inductive loads.
So my Hitachi (instant restart)automatic washing machine is going against all the principles of physics and just when does a "small fan" morph into a fan capable of being called an inductive load.
Your "Hitachi (instant restart)automatic washing machine" isn't so much about it defying physics as you displaying your ignorance... but I digress. All motors and compressors are inductive loads regardless of size, ie. small motor = small load and (in case you haven't worked it out yet) large motor = large load. Are you still with me? The point you missed is the cost and risk of damage to a "small fan" may not warrant the cost of it having any added over/under protection other than its on-off switch.

Now, where's yours?
Read your post again before calling people ignorant, "non inductive loads such as small fans". I know your are from the north east but surely you went to school before the SNP took over.

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tamada
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by tamada » September 20, 2020, 9:19 am

^ I totally agree that my comment lacked the usual clarity and is fundamentally incorrect. Having said that, it does take a certain fixation with pedantry for an obviously low-wattage bulb to make such a meal of it.

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Re: power fluctuations

Post by olinut » September 21, 2020, 1:53 pm

@bandundero,
I have followed the explanation completely and as a layman I have some questions. On the RCD I read "protect with fuse HRC 80 A". but i see an automatic fuse instead, why? As you write they are not linked, is there a reason for?

I also don’t understand and that brings confusion, there is a numbering of the circuits from 1 to 10, but there are only 5 breakers.
Another member (kopkei) has posted a picture of his open box, it’s clear that this has been done professionally, there is also an earthing. Is it possible to also have a photo of your open box. Which wires do you use behind the Breaker 80A and how did you make a good earthing? Thanks.

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sometimewoodworker
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Re: power fluctuations

Post by sometimewoodworker » September 22, 2020, 5:54 pm

BKK-Udon wrote:
September 19, 2020, 4:54 pm
[Why do our refrigerators not just die a horrible death with how often the PEA feeds them 58-120volts during our frequent brownouts?

I have seen over/under cutoff breakers made to mount in the CU, main box for 600-900Bt. Any reason Kopkei’s cheaper unit is not just as good. I don’t recall the cutoff delays, but they were adjustable. https://shopee.co.th/เฟสโปรเทคชั่น-WIP- ... 3518527355

Would it be better to get a bigger “whole house” unit like I have seen displayed at global house for a pretty big pot o’ Baht?

About the time I decide back up power would be a waste of money due to infrequent outages, power drops out twice in a week for 6-8 hours! What is your advice about a generator and setup to run fridge, 1 AC, some electronics.

Thanks!
The Shopee unit will have no problem for the whole house if you use it to drive a suitably sized contactor, not much use otherwise as the rating is “Contact rating: 5A at 250 VAC”
Jerome and Nui's new househttp://bit.ly/NJnewHouse

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