Lance Armstrong. Drug cheat???

[Galee]

Did he cheat or has he got fed up fighting trumped up charges.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/au ... ng-charges

[jackspratt]

My suspicion is the former.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Bike racing is all about endurance, pain and stuff like that, which leads me to agree with Khun Jack as is sometimes the case.

[fatbob]

The facts are Lance Armstrong passed all his drug test's...Is this a witch hunt purely based on suspicion, rumor and jealousy? With no evidence I think it extreme and unfair to strip him of his titles.

[jackspratt]

With no evidence I think it extreme and unfair to strip him of his titles.

Obviously USADA does have evidence. It is the strength and credibility of that evidence that Armstrong appears to not want to challenge.

The absence of a positive drug test (putting aside the urine-based EPO test from the 1999 TdF) is only one piece of evidence - the statements made by numerous witnesses who say they saw him doping are other pieces of evidence.

[Bandung_Dero]

Sitting on the fence right now! Is he going to the slaughter or just being Lance Armstrong? Lets not forget he's no mans fool and a great tactician. This could just turn out to be his greatest victory.

the statements made by numerous witnesses who say they saw him doping are other pieces of evidence.

The statements from disgruntled and jealous fellow team mates actually caught taking drugs??

[parrot]

Given the 'evidence' of passed drug tests versus 'he said/she said', I've got to put my money on Lance being clean. That doesn't mean he is, but I'd hate to think of how many people would end up with their careers ruined if convicted only because of hearsay.
The 16 year Chinese swimmer who busted world records at the Olympics was instantly accused of doping. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. Maybe she's got a Michael Phelps body packed into a woman's body....that and a boatload of training. If she passed her doping tests at the Olympics, who should question her ability?

[jackspratt]

the statements made by numerous witnesses who say they saw him doping are other pieces of evidence.

The statements from disgruntled and jealous fellow team mates actually caught taking drugs??

Maybe, maybe not.

But we will probably never know, because he has chosen not to contest those statements before an independent panel of arbitrators.

"The rules in place have protected the rights of athletes for over a decade in every case USADA has adjudicated," USADA CEO Travis Tygart said in a statement, "and we look forward to a timely, public arbitration hearing in this case, should Mr. Armstrong choose, where the evidence can be presented, witness testimony will be given under oath and subject to cross examination, and an independent panel of arbitrators will determine the outcome of the case."

http://news.yahoo.com/judge-dismisses-a ... --spt.html

[JimboPSM]

I have absolutely no idea whether he is guilty or innocent.

I do, however, feel uncomfortable that the relentless pursuit of doping allegations against him looks far more like a witch hunt, using nothing stronger than guilt by association, hearsay, and circumstantial evidence, than a legal case constructed on actual evidence.

It has been reported that the hearsay evidence comes from those who have failed tests and have already been convicted, but they have been promised sentence reductions if they testified against Armstrong – in many legal systems coerced witness statements do not make for a compelling legal case.

I’ve only had a cursory look at the process, but it does seem a trifle one sided – anyone who has tried to take action against any major organisation knows that the cards are heavily stacked against them.

The vindictive way that allegations have been pursued against him for years (despite hundreds of negative tests) suggests to me that sometime in the past he may have trodden on the toes of some powerful people who are determined to get their own back no matter what.

I also feel uncomfortable that within hours of Armstrong announcing that ”enough is enough” USADA has announced (with indecent haste and without the publication of any evidence) that it is stripping him of his Tour De France titles – something that I would have thought was only in the power of the Tour De France organisation.

As I said at the start, I have absolutely no idea whether he is guilty or innocent, but the vindictive manner in which he has been pursued makes me sympathetic to his case; I do think that BD may well have a valid point on the tactics.

.... Lets not forget he's no mans fool and a great tactician. This could just turn out to be his greatest victory....

[jackspratt]

Lance Armstrong (sport) = Bernie Madoff (finance).

The bigger you are, the harder you are going to fall. Unfortunately, the Goldman Sachs equivalents inside the UCI (International Cycling Union) will probably plunder on untainted, as have GS.

International sport is generally corrupt (a generalisation I know) - but why they have pursued Armstrong I don't know. It doesn't really matter - by choosing not to defend, he is open to whatever judgements people want to make.

In stark contrast to the USADA, Major League Baseball, after resisting drug testing for far too many years, has proven itself to be able to still deny reality. What happens when your best player (MVP in the National League) proves positive to testosterone - you set up an in-house (ie not independent) review committee, and let him off on a technicality.

[Martyn]

How many people would ride a bicycle up a mountain unless they were on drugs?

Let's face it, most professional cyclists are in my opinion, on some form of performance enhancing substance. You're not going to tell me Bradley's sideburns are natural.

[KB_Texas]

The real issue here is that evidence, from formal legal proceedings, have all been less than needed for prosecution. He has been investigated and investigated, over and over. He has many, many surviving samples, which may shed some light on the subject if the results were not so equivocal. Now he is charged by a body that really has nothing but voluntary power, but who have made hounding someone after retirement their life's work. To them, he is guilty until proven innocent. I give you proof in the following quote:

"He had a right to contest the charges," WADA President John Fahey said after Armstrong's announcement. "He chose not to. The simple fact is that his refusal to examine the evidence means the charges had substance in them."

The man defended himself for 10 years. He passed many, many drug tests. Yet hearsay evidence is being used to hound him mercilessly, and demanding that he, once again, defend himself. I don't blame him for just saying "fark off...I am though with your witch hunt...do whatever you want."

A US judge said this, relating to the hounding he has endured:

"USADA's conduct raises serious questions about whether its real interest in charging Armstrong is to combat doping, or if it is acting according to less noble motives," such as politics or publicity, U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks wrote.

"There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, 'Enough is enough.' For me, that time is now," Armstrong said Thursday night, hours before the deadline to enter arbitration. He called the USADA investigation an "unconstitutional witch hunt."

"I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999," he said. "The toll this has taken on my family and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today — finished with this nonsense."

Either these pricks should release unequivocal evidence he cheated, or shut the fark up! How would YOU feel after years of this nonsense?

KB

[JimboPSM]

In an extremely unscientific poll, I went through the top “Google” articles about Lance Armstrong and where applicable trawled quickly through readers comments, my (extremely unscientific) conclusions from this were:

• 1. Media reporters overwhelmingly judged him guilty.
  
  2. Readers comments overwhelmingly judged the system to have been rigged against him.
  
  3. Most readers appeared to judge him innocent on the basis of:
  • a. All the tests that he had passed and/or
    
    b. The system was rigged and/or
    
    c. The lack of any new published evidence.

The gulf between the attitude of the reporters and the readers really was amazingly large.

From this, It would appear that while the public is siding with Armstrong and against USADA, the media are siding with USADA and against Armstrong.

[ShowMe]

I've noticed the French only stick up for themselves and work to tear down the successes of those who pose a threat to anything they believe a fellow countryman should possess. Similar to what happen to Ayrton Senna, the Brazilian Formula One race car driver. Once he started posing a threat to Alain Prost, the leading French Driver, the head of Formula One (another Frenchman) began finding creative ways to keep Senna from winning: Canceling a race early when Prost was about to be overtaken, placing a year probation on Senna, Fines, changing pole position lanes, and finally changing technology rules which finally killed Ayrton Senna. In other words, if your are not French you are not aloud to win.

[leterry60614]

I've noticed the French only stick up for themselves and work to tear down the successes of those who pose a threat to anything they believe a fellow countryman should possess. Similar to what happen to Ayrton Senna, the Brazilian Formula One race car driver. Once he started posing a threat to Alain Prost, the leading French Driver, the head of Formula One (another Frenchman) began finding creative ways to keep Senna from winning: Canceling a race early when Prost was about to be overtaken, placing a year probation on Senna, Fines, changing pole position lanes, and finally changing technology rules which finally killed Ayrton Senna. In other words, if your are not French you are not aloud to win.

So you are a new member and this is your first post... Apart from your dislike of the population of France, do you have any value to add to this thread?

[BobHelm]

I personally doubt if France & its' citizens are any more xenophobic than any other nation ShowMe. However I'm rather puzzled as to where France fits in at all with the Lance Armstrong question - except that he seemed to rather like riding there.
The organisers of the Tour de France have, rightly, been rather silent on the whole affair for now.
The charges against Mr. Armstrong have been laid by USADA, or, to give them their actual title The United States Anti-Doping Agency. The location of that organisation is rather hinted at in the first 3 words of the title, but suffice it to say that it is not France...

As to the guilt or otherwise of Mr. Armstrong, like others I do not know.
I would very much like him to be innocent as his life story is an inspiration to all but would be badly tainted if he is guilty.
Sadly, given the amount of drug enhancement that appears to have been taken by fellow cyclists at the time of his triumphs it would be a truly remarkable achievement for him to have won totally drug free..

[stattointhailand]

Not sure why everyone keeps saying there is no proof?
It's there in front of everyones eyes
Did he not, of his own free will, take part in the tour de france, not one but SEVEN times?

ANYONE who does that HAS to be on drugs

[BigBubba]

The gulf between the attitude of the reporters and the readers really was amazingly large.

From this, It would appear that while the public is siding with Armstrong and against USADA, the media are siding with USADA and against Armstrong.

I tend to agree with this. In an effort to increase ratings many media organizations seem to have no regard for the people who may be hurt by their actions. I was somewhat personally affected by one of these attacks in 1986. I was the sales manager at Alpine Porsche + Audi in Colorado Springs at the time. Colorado was the number one market in the U.S. for Audi back then. All models where either front wheel, or all wheel drive. Perfect for the Colorado winters. CBS's "60 Minutes" aired a program one Sunday evening about Audi's having "unintended acceleration" been involved in a number of incidents resulting in fatalities. One of which was a woman crashing through the back of her garage, running over her young child in the process. The next day, business wise, it was like someone turned off the faucet. Nationwide Audi sales plumeted. It cost them millions, and almost killed the marque. Well, it took many months, but Audi finally proved that people were actually putting their foot on the accelerator instead of the brake pedal. However, the damage was already done. Many independently owned dealerships had failed, or were severely hurt. CBS never acknowledged any fault or issued a retraction. I assume because this would have left them open to civil liability.

I really feel bad for Armstrong. Having fought, and won his personal battle with cancer, and all the good work his foundation does in this field. Maybe, someday he too will be exonerated.

[pienmash]

I realise this is a hot topic in the sports world ,,,,,,but its getting rather tedious IMO ,,, was he wasnt he on drugs , and if yes what about all his titles ,,,,,,,,,,?? his failure or lack of interest to chalenge any accusations makes me smell a rat but its been going on for so long he probably just wants to whole episode to end regardles of the outcome ,,n can you blame him . history is just that history and the future is what matters for him n his family .

I dont give a fig if he did or did not or if he loses his titles and fame ,,,,,,quite honestly there are more pressing issues in todays world than this ...... as ever OMO.

Mash

[BobHelm]

Lance Armstrong: Usada report reveals doping evidence

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19903716

Over 1,000 pages long & the USADA wording is certainly damning, if not the evidence itself.
They say

He was not just a part of the doping culture on his team, he enforced and re-enforced it.

"Armstrong's use of drugs was extensive, and the doping programme on his team, designed in large part to benefit Armstrong, was massive and pervasive.

Armstrong's lawyer,Sean Breen, has described Usada's report as a "one-sided hatchet job".

"[The] statement confirms the alleged 'reasoned decision' from Usada will be a one-sided hatchet job - a taxpayer-funded tabloid piece rehashing old, disproved, unreliable allegations based largely on axe-grinders, serial perjurers, coerced testimony, sweetheart deals and threat-induced stories."

Usada claim the evidence against Armstrong was "beyond strong" and stretched to more than 1,000 pages - which includes sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the US Postal Service Team and its participants' doping activities.

The BBC Sports reporter, Matt Slater, says of the report

it will be gruesome bedtime reading for Lance Armstrong's dwindling band of believers.

A sad day for sport certainly...