Ashes tour down under 2013

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BobHelm
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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by BobHelm » September 23, 2013, 9:44 pm

The combined world side to tour in the Ashes side in Australia later this year has now been announced.
It is as follows..
England Test squad for Australia:
Alastair Cook (Essex, captain), Joe Root (Yorkshire), Jonathan Trott (Warwickshire), Kevin Pietersen (Surrey), Ian Bell (Warwickshire), Gary Ballance (Yorkshire), Michael Carberry (Hampshire), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Ben Stokes (Durham), Matt Prior (Sussex, vice-captain), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Graeme Swann (Nottinghamshire), James Anderson (Lancashire), Monty Panesar (Sussex, on loan at Essex), Steven Finn (Middlesex), Boyd Rankin (Warwickshire), Chris Tremlett (Surrey).


It is difficult to know what else to call it as it contains people born in Zimbabwe, South Africa, New Zealand & Ireland, with the odd Englishman thrown in for good measure.
I am all for equality but, surely, we are just getting a step too far. If a country of 65 million people can't actually find a total of 17 players born within its' boundaries then, just maybe, it is time to call the squad something other than England??



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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by Barney » September 23, 2013, 10:04 pm

Bob,
A good team but you are correct, where are all the talented young local boys coming through. The aussie public have a problem with CA rushing through immigration a pakistani refugee and picking him in front of local lads who have done their time in the lower grades. Seen as a sign of desperation to win, we will see.
Monday 25th Nov you will be told exactly what to call the english team after the british press describe the first test thrashing by the aussies in Brisbane.
The british press are bored with england winning and can't wait to unload on their own team as was the case for many years. But me I think they will do ok and challenge enough to make most tests last the 5 days. :D
Australia 5-0 but that's a long way off.

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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by Zidane » September 24, 2013, 8:54 am

The two omissions that stand out in the squad are Tim Bresnan and Nick Compton.
However,Bresnan has a back injury and will accompany the squad to Australia where his fitness will be monitored.....maybe even get a game if England are 3-0 up with two Tests to play. 8)
Compton had a decent tour of India and New Zealand with two centuries but looks like he has been discarded for good after a poor series against New Zealand at home.
Three uncapped players in Ballance,Stokes and Rankin.I think Rankin has been selected because of the extra bounce his height should give on the pitches in Australia which also applies to Tremlett and Finn.
But both batting line ups are still poor and unpredictable apart from,say,Bell,Cook,Clarke and Watson so you can never be sure how the games will pan out.
Just two months till the first test.....blimey its only last week they finished the tour of England.....it was never like this in the days of Bradman and Hutton !
Just when I thought our chance had passed,you go and save the best for last.

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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by BobHelm » September 24, 2013, 11:34 am

Like Zid, Barney, I am concerned about selecting a squad that has no first class opening batsman to start an innings with Cook.
The experiment of using Root failed dismally in England & yet they are going on tour with only that as an option.
Neither Trott or Pietersen deserve a place on the International games played in England this summer.
In my opinion Trott should have been sent back to his county & told to score some runs or be excluded.
Pietersen will undoubtedly score 1 innings that will create the opportunity for England to win a match - & play 9 innings that require his team mates to dig England out of a large hole. However my stance on him ( not worth his place due to all the baggage he brings) appears to break no ice with the selectors - despite me being proved correct... :D
I am not sure that Prior deserves the wicket keepers spot either. While he remains a good keeper his run with the bat has been exceedingly poor.
I think Anderson & Swann had poor tests by their standards but I still think that they could prove to be the match winners for England. Whether the batting line up can ever give the bowlers a sufficient target to bowl at is a huge question mark though.
I think Australia could well win the series but I also think that the games will probably be on as much as a knife edge as the games in England were.
Let's be brutally honest, neither of these sides are anything like world beaters & a victory/defeat in The Ashes won't change that either... :D :D

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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by mathusalah80 » September 24, 2013, 12:39 pm

Bob wrote:
I am all for equality ,..... ( :-s :-k )....but, surely, we are just getting a step too far. If a country of 65 million people ....including a very large proportion of ethnic Citizens!)...can't actually find a total of 17 players born within its' boundaries then, just maybe, it is time to call the squad something other than England??

Why Bob? Having settled permanently, and taken Brtish Citizenship these such players are fully entitled to expect to be considered, and treated, as Citizens, and as entitled to represent their adopted country as are locally born Citizens.
Would you be mollified if all future English National sports teams were entitled "England (including non English born Citizens)" or "England (League of Nations) XI" That would certainly open up an unwelcome can of worms, worldwide :lol: \:D/

Given the fact that, in this 21st century, there are literally millions of 'foreigners' (whatever that word now means), who have permanently settled and taken up citizenship in virtually every country in the world. Also, for many decades now it is common, certainly in the major countries, for non locally born Citizens to be found included in National representative teams. Just have a look at the make up of the teams attending the last Olympc games.

While I sympathize with, and indeed share your nostalgia for 'the old days', I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. :(

Back on topic, my forecast is that England will be returning to the UK a well beaten team, followng this upcoing series. Hopefully I will be able to get to Perth to enjoy that Test match.

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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by BobHelm » September 24, 2013, 1:58 pm

As usual ( :D ) you read my comments completely wrong Matt... :D
I have absolutely no objection to anyone who entered England as a 'junior' & then discovered that they were good at a sport playing for the national side.
in the majority of cases that is NOT what we are talking about with the players that I object to.
They are already adults when deciding on switch national allegiance &, personally, I do NOT think that they should then be allowed to play for that national squad.
Plastic Brits they were dubbed before the Olympic games as they entered the British Olympic squad.
Indeed, in that world, they often then switch country allegiance yet again, immediately after the event.

In my mind there is little point in then referring to a squad of such players by any country affiliation..

Far to much of 'sport' today is about money, rather than anything else. Is is, to my mind, yet another example of that 'win at any costs' even if that involves cheating.

If England cannot produce enough good young cricketers from the country then the real solution is to make changes to the current system that produces players - not import adults from around the world & call them English!!

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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by mathusalah80 » September 25, 2013, 1:00 am

Bob, I totally agree wityh the sentiments as NOW expressed & explained, which of course, (clever you [-X ) has subtle, but very important differences to that expressed in your original post, as you well know, of course \:D/ :lol: .

But I do question your typical English machotism in picking on the poor old beleaguered ENGLISH cricket team ONLY, rather than making a more general and justified disapproving comment in relation to a procedure now followed wordwide NOT just the Engish cricket selectors.

Sad state of affairs when an Aussie feels obliged to defend the Brits against the criticism of a Brit. :shock: :-s :-"

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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by Barney » September 25, 2013, 2:08 am

There's even an aussie who became a POM last august who will travel to australia with the developing team. A shadow POM team. He has been killing them in england with the willow playing for middlesex since 2009 scoring 1108 runs this past first division season. Played for NSW u/19's years ago but since NSW had the bulk of aguabley the better aussie batsmen at that stage and he could not get a run he ventured to england.
He may still get a chance to play a test match in aussie all beit for the wrong team when the inevitable english failures are realised. He would certainly cap off a true multinational british team.
At least he went overseas to go through the grades as Bob mentioned and has chosen his fate early in life. Good luck to him.

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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by mathusalah80 » September 25, 2013, 10:23 am

Bob,
Sorry, meant to ask you , in my last post: Specifically, which of the South African, Zimbabwean, NZ, Irish & AUSTRALIAN players in the squad named for the Oz tour, fall into your disapproved category, as defined in your post?

The reason I ask is because an acquantance mentioned that there were 'very strict ICC and English governing body, particularly on residencey, (he mentioned five years?), requirements' which have to be met, which colletively would prevent players in the 'unfair' category, as defined by you, being included in, for example, the squad to tour Oz.

My interest having been thoroughly aroused, would be grateful also of your computer expertise in kindly pointing me to the 'website/address (?) wherein I can find and discover for myself the aforesaid ICC rules governing eligibility for selection for a National cricket team.

Thanks.

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Post by BobHelm » September 25, 2013, 10:57 am

The rule is now 4 years if under 18 & 7 years if over. The later was changed from 4 years to 7 years in April last year...
However the ECB can reduce it to 4 if the player has come from a non ICC country.
The change, however, did not apply to any existing England player.

So I think that the new rules are probably fair however the past record of the ECB has not exactly been glowing in this regard. Consider the case of Andrew Symonds who played cricket for Gloucester as a 'local player' but ended up playing International cricket for Australia.
So I guess that no country is immune from the issue... :D :D

http://www.ecb.co.uk/ecb/about-ecb/medi ... 44,EN.html

As far as cricket information goes I believe that the best site by far is Cricinfo. It got taken over by ESPN a few years ago which caused me some concerns at the time but ESPN seems to have left it pretty much alone.
It is here & is great for finding out bits of information..
http://www.espncricinfo.com/

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Post by mathusalah80 » September 26, 2013, 11:22 am

Thanks Bob, for that mine of helpful information enabling me henceforth to keep better updated on my favourite sport of "REAL" cricket. (i.e.not the American Rounders versions. :-" \:D/ :lol: ).

Returning to your original post, (expressing, and stating the reason for, your 'displeasure' regarding the international make-up of the current Englsh squad to tour Oz) , which sparked off this discussion, you appear to have overlooked, ( :-s :-" ;) \:D/ ), my enquiry as to the specific individual selections which prompted your impassioned diatribe and wounded that sensitive National pride of yours ( :mad: :evil: ;).

In case you cannot find it, herewith the overlooked query: "Specifically, which of the South African, Zimbabwean, NZ, Irish & AUSTRALIAN players in the squad named for the Oz tour, fall into your disapproved category, as defined in your (second) post?Footnote: I bet you really loved the late Tony Gregg; you know the guy, the ex ENGLAND CAPTAIN \:D/ :lol:

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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by BobHelm » September 26, 2013, 11:57 am

mathusalah80 wrote:In case you cannot find it, herewith the overlooked query: "Specifically, which of the South African, Zimbabwean, NZ, Irish & AUSTRALIAN players in the squad named for the Oz tour, fall into your disapproved category, as defined in your (second) post?
Now you are putting words in my mouth Mat. I never mentioned Australian, capitalised or not...as for the rest..

1. Ian Jonathan Leonard Trott - Born April 22, 1981, Cape Town, Cape Province
2. Kevin Peter Pietersen - Born June 27, 1980, Pietermaritzburg, Natal
3. Gary Simon Ballance - Born November 22, 1989, Zimbabwe
4. Benjamin Andrew Stokes - Born June 4, 1991, Christchurch, Canterbury, New Zealand
5. Matthew James Prior - Born February 26, 1982, Johannesburg, Transvaal, South Africa
6. William Boyd Rankin - Born July 5, 1984, Londonderry

I am sure they are all wonderful people... :D
However I do not believe that Pietersen should be playing for England - just for the number & nature of his 'incidents' while doing so.
Trott & Prior both had poor Ashes series at home & have done nothing to suggest that they will improve while away. There are also England born replacements for them available.

It is just the general fact that out of a squad of 17 ENGLISH players, 6 certainly are not. 1 or 2 is forgiveable, over a third is not - in my opinion!!

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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by stattointhailand » September 26, 2013, 1:30 pm

Damn, and I was looking forward to seeing my daughter play for England Ladies when she grew up :(

Oh well, my fault I suppose, I should have flown the wife to UK just before she gave birth :-"

On the bright side, It will probably be easier for her to get into the Thai Ladies Cricket Team \:D/

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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by mathusalah80 » September 26, 2013, 4:18 pm

ANNOUNCING THE BOB AND MAT FUN HALF HOUR
Now, now Bob, you are doing your 'slippery eel' bit yet again. A ploy at which you are a proven, and entertaining master, when you make one of your , admittedly rare, slips, as now.

If you are standing by your FIRSTLY, clearly and unambiquously stated grounds you consider should be an essential requirement for selection: ...."players born within its boundaries"...

then clearly my response to THAT post was directly appropriate and applicable to your stated view, as was my unanswered "Why" question therein, despite your calculated evasive response, incorporating your laughable 'red herring' of 'reading my (your)coments completely wrong"not understanding. [-X .

However in your next post, ( supposed in response to what I wrote ;) ), and with your previousl;y mentioned slippery adroitness you 'changed the goalpost' and came up with your SECOND, (replacement?????), interpretation of what you really meant to say:
paraphrasing: You DON'T, after all, as stated in your FIRST definition, object to the inclusion of those persons named in this current squad who were born overseas BUT came to England before they became adults BUT YOU DO OBJECT/DISAGREE with the inclusion in this current squad of those players born overseas and who came to England BEFORE they became adults.

While, whichever of these two ways you want to go or, even if you come up in your inimitable way ,with yet a THIRD variation ;) ;) \:D/, I consider my first response to your original post still remains pertinent and appropriate. Clearly we have a fundamental difference in our views upon the whether the rights accruing to a person born overseas upon being granted British Citizenship, (at whatever age!), should be less than those granted to a native born citizen.

Nevertheless, I would defend to the death, (well almost!), your right to your views, no matter how misguided \:D/ :D :lol: ; and I am sure you feel exactly the same way towards me ;) :^o :-"

Finally, to end this fascinating and fun filled bout of written repartee on a happy note, (less readers start to get the impression we don't like each other :-s), how about just one straightforward answer to a straightforward question, (I promise I won't tell anyone and so ruin your reputation).

I asked you to specifically to identify which of the overseas players should not be considered eligible for selection, based on YOUR criteria. (i.e. which of them came to England when they were already adults) In typical fashion you ignored the specifics and merely listed the players born overseas and expressed an opinion regarding the playing records/behaviour of two or three of them. You really are undoutedly entitled to be considered the Maradonna of the Udonmap Forum =D> :lol: \:D/

So, just this once and even though it may negatively affect your hardearned reputation, please advise, in relation to EACH of the selected overseas born players (a) the age at which they came to England (b) whether and the year
when, granted British Citizenship c) whether they are married to British born citizens. d) what do you consider the adulthood age?

Even in the extremel;y unlikely event of your answering directly, sure you will agree time to finish what has been an interestingf and amusing 'side' discussion and concentrate of what promises to be a very competitive and, I suspect , controversial series. So you can have the advanmtage of the last word Bob; one which I am sure you will exploit to the maximum [-X

By the way,since you seem to have acquired a taste for globetrotting over the last eighteen months, and to have money to burn, perhaps you might like to join me in Perth Bob? If, as seems possible, you are not very keen on supporting the team of foreigners which Australia is due to take on, you are welcome to transfer your allegiance to Australia - even though you undoubtedly an ADUlT we Aussies are a very tolerant lot and will not rais any objection.

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Ashes tour down under 2013

Post by Zidane » September 27, 2013, 9:11 am

Heres a young English lad for the future.......
Dominic Sibley aged 18 scored an unbeaten 220 not out for Surrey and in doing so became the counties youngest ever double centurion and the youngest double centurion in the history of the County Championship ! =D> =D> =D>
So well done to him.....he was born in Epsom,Surrey and was granted 4 days special leave by his school from A-Level study to play in the game against Yorkshire.

Durham have clinched the County Championship Division 1 and Lancashire are champions of Division 2,with Northants also promoted.The season ends today with the Ashes series in Australia starting in November.
Just when I thought our chance had passed,you go and save the best for last.

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Post by mathusalah80 » September 27, 2013, 10:13 am

If Sibley was an Aussie Zid, he would most likely be very swiftly given an early international appearance opportunity , to test (no pun intended), his mettle, and then taken into the excellent system we have to nurture promising cricketers, improving their existing strengths and carefully correcting their flaws.
Being English, the first re-action wlll almost certainly be he is too young to play with the big boys, and he will be left to the tender mercies of his college and county coaches without any long term and structured plan to nurture him along.
In my opinion this reluctance to 'go with youth' which seems to be an in built attitude in England, has cost that country dearly in the past,in terms of lost promising talent. Hope this doesn't prove to bethe case with Sibley.

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Post by BobHelm » September 27, 2013, 1:44 pm

mathusalah80 wrote:In my opinion this reluctance to 'go with youth' which seems to be an in built attitude in England, has cost that country dearly in the past,in terms of lost promising talent. Hope this doesn't prove to bethe case with Sibley.
If I was to respond to your posts in kind then I would be DEMANDING that you state actual players names, who was the 'old timer' in the squad that was failed to be replaced & so cost England dear & so on.... :D
But I am a better man than that.... :D

In response to your last diatribe to my reply I will try & make it clear EXACTLY what I said, instead of what you apparently THOUGHT I said.
I am all for equality but, surely, we are just getting a step too far. If a country of 65 million people can't actually find a total of 17 players born within its' boundaries then, just maybe, it is time to call the squad something other than England??
So maybe you can actually point out where I said that 'overseas players should not be in the squad. I merely questioned if it was appropriate to call the squad The England Cricket Team when so many were pretty obviously not.

You demanded that I 'name & shame' the players & say who should NOT be picked & I clearly answered, something which you are now, apparently unhappy about...
& no apology for putting words in my mouth about them select Australian (emboldened to make the claim seem worse) players as well.

I will restate my case clearly so there is no ambiguity.

Having over a third of the players for an England cricket side being born outside its' borders is, I BELIEVE, an unacceptable (& unnecessary) position to be in..

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Post by mathusalah80 » September 28, 2013, 12:54 pm

You are being a naughty boy again Bob, getting up to your usual tricks [-X ;) :lol, this time by selecting PART ONLY of my post, so that is is immediately out of context, to enable you to, yet again, change the goalposts and, crucially, the thrust of my post.
Also you wrote: ....who was the 'old timer' in the squad that was failed to be replaced & so cost England dear ..... From which I gather you now consider it OK to 'put words into the mouth of others', provided of course, it is YOU who is doing it. [-X :-" :lol:

I wrote:
If Sibley was an Aussie Zid, he would most likely be very swiftly given an early international appearance opportunity , to test (no pun intended), his mettle, and then taken into the excellent system we have to nurture promising cricketers, improving their existing strengths and carefully correcting their flaws.
Being English, the first re-action wlll almost certainly be he is too young to play with the big boys, and he will be left to the tender mercies of his college and county coaches without any long term and structured plan to nurture him along.
In my opinion this reluctance to 'go with youth' which seems to be an in built attitude in England, has cost that country dearly in the past,in terms of lost promising talent. Hope this doesn't prove to be the case with Sibley.


The OVERALL main thrust of my post, which was specifically in response to Zid's, was that, notwithstanding having with a population more than double that of Australia, the UK has not produced anywhere near the number of young native born cricketers who have gone on to enjoy a career as aTest player, as has Australia. Further to express, as MY OPINION, possible reasons for that situation.

Even with my alleged difficulty in comprehending written English, coupled with an alleged tendency to hullucinary thoughts, :-" :-$ \:D/ \:D/ I think it is reasonable to assume your response implies you disagree with my view :shock: :cry: which, in essence,is that the lack of emerging young native born English cricketers strongly indicates that those responsible are not doing enough to identify promisng young players, and to ensure the structure is available to then encourage and nurture them and then give them an early age opprtunity to prove themselves at Test Match level.

That is the long standing, and proven successful, policy in Australia which, I repeat, with a populaton less than half that of the UKhas, for several decades included, and continues to include more, (by far), native born players in its Test sides, than does England, and which players I SUGGEST, in the main, are more likely to have started their Test careers at an earlier age than their English counterparts.

I suggest a quick check , and then a comparision, of the birth places and their ages upon international debut, of the English Squad players selected to go to Australia, and of the Australian squad which has just comleted the series in England, will provide a very strong indication, to an unbiased mind, of the respective merits of our widely diverging opinions. PERSONALLY, I am certain additional checks/comparisions between the two squads named for the PREVIOUS series in Australia, and even for the series before that, would produce very similar results.

OK Bob , this will constitute my first and last response to this latest bit of nitpicking on your part :-" ;) . So once again I am generously giving you the last word(s) :D :-s , in the certain knowledge that you will not let me down in my expectation of an entertaining response, full of "Bob" logic and interpretations. \:D/ :D :lol:

WARNING. I have been asked to pass on the message that, if you continue to be nasty to me, the recently homecooked Cornish Pasties, Pork Pies and Mince & Onion pies specially prepared for your return, wlll be distributed to others more deserving, (including ME!).. :shock: :evil: :cry: 8-[

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Post by BobHelm » September 28, 2013, 1:08 pm

mathusalah80 wrote:WARNING. I have been asked to pass on the message that, if you continue to be nasty to me, the recently homecooked Cornish Pasties, Pork Pies and Mince & Onion pies specially prepared for your return, wlll be distributed to others more deserving, (including ME!).. :shock: :evil: :cry: 8-[
ah, the ultimate in logical arguments,, I concede. :D

I will just say that comparing the ages of the current Australian squad to the English one at the moment is rather a large red herring though.
Australian Test cricket is such a poor state at the moment precisely because all its 'old reliables' retired at the same time. I didn't see any Australian selectors pushing the Warnes & Pontings so that youngsters could be brought in.... :D
Michael Clarke is 4 years older than Alastair Cook just as an example!!

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Post by mathusalah80 » September 28, 2013, 2:02 pm

OK so one last time, just for you.

Bob, You have done it AGAIN , on several counts, so living up to my already expressed expectations :-s [-X \:D/

1.Example of a "Bobarism"
Looks like my alleged English Language reading comprehension ailment is contagious. :oops: 8-[ . , since what I wrote was :.....and their ages upon international debut,......
which you have 'accidentally'(?) and conveniently chosen to interpret as:.."comparing the ages of the current Australian squad to the English one at the moment is rather a large red herring...
So Yes, I agree, a red herring introduced by YOU \:D/ :-" :D :lol:

2.Michael Clarke is 4 years older than Alastair Cook just as an example....
Other than as an example of the 'exception proving the rule' don't see any relevance at all to my comments. It has never been my stance that ALL the Aussie players are/were younger than the Engish players. So, another Bob red herring. [-X

FINISHED.

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