Viet Nam vs. Thailand

[Aardvark]

I read not long ago in the Bkk Post that the growth in Tourism is from China and other Asian Countries rather than the West ....

[WhoUrDaddy]

Not Prenders88, surely not strapped, but agree that those strapped for money are the ones that complain the most, and probably wouldn't be happy anywhere. Immigration regulations are designed just for that, so you are happy here. If you can't make the requirement for extended stay, maybe you shouldn't try to stay extended.

2.5 yrs is long enough to form a balanced opinion. Agree, Thailand is winning hands down.

The ones that holiday here, in Phuket and Pattaya, the attempt to retire here on a pittance in Udon Thani, then complain it's not the same and they can't enjoy themselves or 'too expensive' are kidding only themselves. They can't afford to live anywhere and wouldn't be happy anywhere. UK this, EU this, immigrants, dole seekers, east coming west, USA overpriced, and the endless complaints of their own happiness are blamed on everything but the source.

[Prenders88]

I read not long ago in the Bkk Post that the growth in Tourism is from China and other Asian Countries rather than the West ....

Exactly just look at their growth rates, where in the West its as flat as a pancake. Not many tourists doing the long haul from the USA or Europe, except the Russians.

[semperfiguy]

So far as I'm concerned there is a lot to be said about the way in which the people in a host country accept an expat. This goes a long way in determining the quality of contentment, peace and tranquility for me. Back in the States one works his entire life scratching his way to the top of the food chain to get into the top 10% bracket of income earners and hopefully along the way earns a good reputation and a high degree of respect within the community and among his peers. An expat coming to live in Thailand should be mentally prepared to leave all of that behind and expect to be treated at best with indifference and disdain by the locals, especially if he settles in Udon Thani. The Thais seem to be unable to gaze upon a foreigner and instantly tell from what station in life the expat has come...and they seem to care less one way or the other. One need only take a walk through Central Plaza to get that sinking feeling that we are not welcome here. There is that subtle sense of hostility in the air...no smiles or forced smiles, no eye contact, the traditional wais for respect for an older person are few and far between...it's just not a comforting and welcoming experience. I can spend the day out in the public domain and come home feeling mentally and emotionally drained like a whipped dog. If self-esteem and dignity is dear to one's heart...stay clear of Thailand because you won't find it here.

I lived in Taipei, Taiwan from '88-'91 and experienced the same phenomena there. The locals didn't call us farangs, but we were refered to as Gweilos, or white devils. No one can convince me that the word farang doesn't have a negative connotation when used by a Thai. It would be like telling a black man that he is not being devalued as a human being when he is referred to as a ni**er! I can't imagine that life in Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam or Malaysia would be any different for a Western expat.

On the other hand, I lived in the Philippines from '78 - '88 and it was an unbelievably magical experience for me. The Filipinos are a warm and hospitable people who still have a colonial mentality and love the people from the West. One never meets a stranger in the Philippines and everyone is anxious to have a conversation with a guy from the States. Of course, it helps that English is the primary language, but even those who can only speak the native Tagalog are just as friendly. I felt like a kid in a candy shop out in public and was always made to feel like a individual. An invite into someone's home was a daily occurrence and I never wanted for good Filipino friends. If I weren't already happily married to a Thai and well entrenched here in Udon, I would be headed back to the PI faster than you could say lickety-split!

[merchant seaman]

When I would walk through a Mall in the States I got the same feeling SFG gets here in Udon. Lived in P.I. '72-'75 and not one day did I feel save. Hell one day I got my socks stolen. Nothing unusual about that except they did it without taking my shoes off to do it. Born thiefs in my opinion.

[Barney]

The post asks Thailand V Viet Nam (actually 2 words)
I first went to Vietnam 2002 for a construction project, met a girl and built a house in expat friendly Vung Tau then up and moved 2009 to the far south west to Bach Lieu built another house, aquired some land. It is rare to see another expat down in Bach Lieu and that suited me fine. I am never allowed as a non married guy to own any land or house under the current laws. Do not forget it is still a communist country and the laws to change this (even though rumours exist they will soften) will take forever to implement. I have always been treated well and looked after by the family and all friends. Food is great and the culture is vast. I have made the decision to leave because I have found another partner and she is Thai.
I am now in the process of moving all my life to thailand, not because i find thailand better but because i am following my heart to be with my girl. I accept Thailand warts and all, but again have had no problems with thailand or the people.
I originally came to thailand 2008 on a business visa for another construction project in the refineries at Map Tha Phut near Rayong and lived for 1 year on Pratamnak Hill between Pattaya and Jomtien. Once the sites and sounds of walking street have been experienced it starts to get boring and I started to venture out further and further on day trips to explore, having a company car and thai licence helped with independance. Loved the place but no more than Vietnam although they are different in many ways. I have been visiting ever since and after the usual short term PFP GF experiences I have now met a Thai girl and we are happy and planning a life together. We met while I was for 2 years working in Singapore where she was married to a Singaporean ( not while we were together) and she lived in my apartment on Orchard road and worked at the local food court in of all things a thai restaurant. There is a large thai population married to Singaporean Chinese and malays in Singapore. So I did not know her under the Thai living conditions till she returned to start our business.We are outside KK and will move to UT in the future.
Visas in Vietnam were in the past issued for 6 month tourist but that ceased and are now only issued as 3 month tourist visas and long term 6 month or 12 month are usually with a business or employment situation. This will change most likely to the Thai visa on arrival system because the dollar will speak and the govt want money coming in. Long term 3 year and 5 year are available if you are married and other criteria are met. You still will not own anything because the commy govt owns everything. I have been going to Vietnam as already said for some time and have 2 kids and been with the same girl but cannot get a long term visa unless I marry, BUT since i have been there for some time and have some connections I was able to get a 2 year temp resident visa and not for the fact that i had kids. That was difficult to get and never the norm for westerners.
So my choice is to follow my heart and make the best of the hand i am dealt.

Is it just me and am I in the minority as i have nothing of great concern to complain about from either location.

I do not know the original poster and he may be just going through a phase like we all do. Life is to short to let things get you down, if your not happy somewhere move on or take a holiday to clear the mind. I am a positive thinker and treat all parts of life as an adventure and not all experiences are what we expected. I do not live in a fantasy and go dancing down the road thinking life is or should be great everday because it is not.
I would not discourage any one from going to Vietnam, go and have a look, it's a great place and so far so is Thailand. Sometimes Nirvana cannot be found.
Barney
P.S There is a small island off the south called Phu Quoc, it is in the infancy of development with an international airport being built, great place for a quiet sit on the beach holiday, for that clearing the mind experience.

[plumbers]

I enjoy living in Thailand and i think life is what you make it , I do agree some thais are of the attitude farang have no money now , europe is in recession , America is also struggling , i should think the biggest change to Thailand is young people having access to the internet , they want what we have had for years and now they can see what is going on in the out side world . Not so easy to get a young thai to plant rice all day and live and die in the village many young people want to get an education and lead a decent life .
The two and half years i have been in Udon remind me of what happened in the sixties and seventies in my home town in the Uk, the old was swept away new shopping centres roads every thing turned up side down in with the new out with the old ways .Small cottage industry gone (small shops , car dealers, bakers, green grocers ect ) big was becoming beautiful the likes of Tesco sainsburys large car dealerships swallowing up the small man, Thailand is heading in the same direction
many people will benefit, many will be left behind because they do not realise their old ways off life are being aroded away.
Sorry ive gone a little off topic here but i personly have never been badly treated here (may be i am lucky) i find Thais to be no different in as much some people are good and some horrible .
One more thing while im ranting on , The Thai powers to be could be thinking people living in Thailand (expats) are not worth the trouble and headache , easier for tourist to arrive for two weeks spend their money and go home .
Have i got the bigger picture for the future of Thailand right or am i wrong ?

[parrot]

"Have i got the bigger picture for the future of Thailand right or am i wrong ?"

IMO, expat cash (at least in Udon) is small potatoes compared to what's at stake with the ASEAN Economic Community integration scheduled for the next few years. From what I gather, Udon/Vicinity is preparing for a major economic boom in the next few years......how that will affect the common man (Thai/farang) is debatable.......maybe good if you're looking for more shopping/eating/education choices in the area, but maybe bad if you're looking for less traffic or cheaper prices.
In any case, if you're pining for days of old (wooden shophouses, samlors, sleepy Isaan hollow), you're probably going to be disappointed.
If the AEC is a success, you can expect lots more construction, maybe a high speed railroad, lots more traffic, lots of people speaking Chinese in town, and maybe clouds of potash residue in the atmosphere.
If the AEC is a bust (it's implementation has recently been delayed a year), then there will be a huge glut of condos, housing developments, and shopping areas that lack occupants.
Judging from the large number of Mercs roaming the streets and even larger number of businesses that remain open despite a dearth of customers, there's obviously a lot of cash being tossed around the community..........and it's not coming from the expat pensioners in the area.
The good news is: in my 17 years here, I've seen one single increase in the cost of an annual extension (to 1900 baht per year...and that happened about 10 years ago), and only minor adjustments in the paperwork necessary to stay here. Udon has its own full-service immigration office.....a major bennie when compared to going to Nongkai or to the AEK office.
On the subject of the PI, a lasting memory (other than good times on Fields Ave and MacArthur Blvd) is the ubiquitous security guard at every bank, every housing area, and most major stores holding a rifle with a barrel that seemed an inch wide! And even with that, house break-ins seemed to be the routine rather than the exception.

And finally, does anyone think that dealing with a government agency in any other Asian country (China, VN, Laos, Cambodia) will be a cakewalk compared to what you encounter in Thailand? I never feel the officials are acting in a 'superior' manner....rather, they're acting like most anyone in a government position who has no need to employ customer-satisfaction techniques. Go to any motor vehicle department back in the US without the required paperwork and you'll be sent packing in a hurry. When you return, you'll be at the end of the queue.

Really, finally, while communist countries aren't what they used to be, if anyone is disenfranchised with the state of Thai politics, I can't imagine things would be brighter in Vietnam or Laos.

[jai yen yen]

So far as I'm concerned there is a lot to be said about the way in which the people in a host country accept an expat. This goes a long way in determining the quality of contentment, peace and tranquility for me. Back in the States one works his entire life scratching his way to the top of the food chain to get into the top 10% bracket of income earners and hopefully along the way earns a good reputation and a high degree of respect within the community and among his peers. An expat coming to live in Thailand should be mentally prepared to leave all of that behind and expect to be treated at best with indifference and disdain by the locals, especially if he settles in Udon Thani. The Thais seem to be unable to gaze upon a foreigner and instantly tell from what station in life the expat has come...and they seem to care less one way or the other. One need only take a walk through Central Plaza to get that sinking feeling that we are not welcome here. There is that subtle sense of hostility in the air...no smiles or forced smiles, no eye contact, the traditional wais for respect for an older person are few and far between...it's just not a comforting and welcoming experience. I can spend the day out in the public domain and come home feeling mentally and emotionally drained like a whipped dog. If self-esteem and dignity is dear to one's heart...stay clear of Thailand because you won't find it here.

I lived in Taipei, Taiwan from '88-'91 and experienced the same phenomena there. The locals didn't call us farangs, but we were refered to as Gweilos, or white devils. No one can convince me that the word farang doesn't have a negative connotation when used by a Thai. It would be like telling a black man that he is not being devalued as a human being when he is referred to as a ni**er! I can't imagine that life in Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam or Malaysia would be any different for a Western expat.

On the other hand, I lived in the Philippines from '78 - '88 and it was an unbelievably magical experience for me. The Filipinos are a warm and hospitable people who still have a colonial mentality and love the people from the West. One never meets a stranger in the Philippines and everyone is anxious to have a conversation with a guy from the States. Of course, it helps that English is the primary language, but even those who can only speak the native Tagalog are just as friendly. I felt like a kid in a candy shop out in public and was always made to feel like a individual. An invite into someone's home was a daily occurrence and I never wanted for good Filipino friends. If I weren't already happily married to a Thai and well entrenched here in Udon, I would be headed back to the PI faster than you could say lickety-split!

I would not worry too much about the Thais attitude. If you like the country and the weather just enjoy it and ignore the ignorance of some. I know the Thais think they are superior
but the fact is they are not. Their I.Q. is about 10 points lower than Western or European people and the level is going down with the younger generation. It was the West and Europe that has been the development leaders in the world and now some Asian countries are as well but Thailand is not one of them. The only reason Thailand is doing well is their large cheap labour force which has brought foreign investment here. Without that they would be nowhere. As well a degree from most Thai universities is not worth the paper it is written on. I could go on but my point is I know and you should know who we are and be proud of that, regardless of what the Thais want to believe. Just enjoy what you like about THEIR country.

[fatbob]

Just enjoy what you like about THEIR country.

The Ladys

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Thailand is going to get left behind when the Assean kicks in because they think there better than the other Asian country's
The government know's but they will do nothing about it, ie the old head in the sand syndrome.

What exactly do you mean by that statement? For example, 'when Asean kicks in....' Asean has been around for a long time so hasn't it already 'kicked in' so to speak?

[vlad]

I mean other Asian country's are teaching English faster yet Thailand is doing its up most to keep English out of there school's. There teaching and work permit system has not been made easier for foreigners to teach.

[fdimike]

I'm sure he's referring to the ASEAN Economic Community 2015 when all these member countries are supposed to join hands and make nice to each other.

[vlad]

In one FDimike that's what I was attempting to say most of the other Asian country's have took the hint Thailand hasn't.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

I mean other Asian country's are teaching English faster yet Thailand is doing its up most to keep English out of there school's. There teaching and work permit system has not been made easier for foreigners to teach.

Do you have any proof for the above statement? The teaching of English is part of the curriculum in Thai schools although this does not mean that it is taught well. Furthermore, I would need to see some statistics to prove your point that Thailand is behind Laos, Cambodia, Burma, Vietnam, Indonesia and Brunei in the teaching of English. However, I would support your view that Singapore and the Philippines are ahead of Thailand. Malaysia...hmmm...I am not so sure. Are you?

Is it easy to get work permits to teach English in the other AESEAN nations such as Burma, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Indonesia et al? Tell me the rules for those countries. Thanks.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

I'm sure he's referring to the ASEAN Economic Community 2015 when all these member countries are supposed to join hands and make nice to each other.

That was the goal from day one, 8 August 1967.

[MALC]

i have to agree with vlad on this thailand is miles behind other asain countries teaching english in schools.

[vlad]

Its a well known fact Thailand is lagging behind the other country's wangthong so don't be looking cause a ruck on here as well as the forum you helped get me banned off.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

I am not trying to get you banned nor have I ever tried to do that, I just want some facts.

Prove that Thailand lags behind Laos, Burma, Vietnam and Indonesia, for example, in teaching English. Furthermore, prove that it is easier for foreigners to teach in those countries. Until you can provide proof, I do not think your statements are valid. You need more than word of mouth to back up your words, n'est-ce pas? You may be right, but....

[pompui]

At least Thailand beat Libya in English proficiency =D>

http://www.ef.co.th/epi