Seeking advice

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sometimewoodworker
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Re: Seeking advice

Post by sometimewoodworker » September 9, 2017, 8:12 am

ozzybill wrote:
September 4, 2017, 8:51 pm
Hello everyone, I have lived Thailand for 20 yrs. been with the same lady for 18yrs, legally married for 8yrs, built house and maintained the farm, not much different than many others. After a long illness my wife died, without a will, 3mths ago, I have been told (Thai Inheritance Law) that I have 12mths to dispose of any property and proceeds to be distributed as per the law. As I wish to stay in Thailand with the family, and have security, how can I lease the house and property and from whom. Any info will help and be a starting point . Many tks BILL
I think that you have been slightly misinformed. Yes you have 12 months to dispose of any land that may have been in your wife's ownership which now belongs to you.

However you have no requirement to dispose of anything else. You are able to own the house in its entirety, you just can not own the land it sits on.

As to how you can have security that the new land owner decides to do something you disagree with rather depends on the local land office and if they will permit an Usufruct to be registered on the land. Some officials will allow it some will not, it is quite possible that in the current case that the land office will be sympathetic.

Personally if I were in your shoes I would go to the land office and talk to them first before doing anything. I would take an independent professional interpreter, if you don't speak Thai, NOT a family member. Family members could have good intentions but probably do not have the background or technical language knowledge to interperate.
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wazza
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Re: Seeking advice

Post by wazza » September 9, 2017, 8:17 am

Family members would also have a conflict of interest during any discussions perhaps.

Blood is thicker than water

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sometimewoodworker
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Re: Seeking advice

Post by sometimewoodworker » September 9, 2017, 12:46 pm

wazza wrote:
September 9, 2017, 8:17 am
Family members would also have a conflict of interest during any discussions perhaps.

Blood is thicker than water
That was also a reason that I didn't mention being a given. But didn't want to suggest less than good intentions from his family.
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Re: Seeking advice

Post by ozzybill » September 9, 2017, 2:44 pm

Hello sometimewoodworker. Big tks for the advice. Yes I understand that I cannot own any of the land, the security I need with the house is that sometime in the future, whoever owns the land that it is on, which most likely will be a family member, can decide to move in with their extended family or they may ask me to leave. Or as my stepdaughter says, there is no problem leave things as they are, Only the future will confirm that. My time for decision does not finish until May next year so there is still time to decide on what to do. Big tks again, BILL

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Re: Seeking advice

Post by Bandung_Dero » September 9, 2017, 3:08 pm

To the OP, interesting question:- I think it depends on how solid your relationship is with the Thai Family and your "will/want" on your untimely demise.

Me, living here and married 17 years:- Knowing I could live in our home indefinitely and have access to any/all assets we have I would head off to the Amphor office with TW's daughter (23yo) and help her get the land holdings that TW has in her (my family) name transferred to her (she carries her mothers Maiden name). This will save any problems on my death and is both TW's and my want.

We all know the olde saying "Don't spend more in Thailand than you can afford or want to loose!"

In saying all that I don't think I'd last too long here in the rice paddies solo and probably head off to start a new life. Just walk away from it all, happy in knowing I can come back at any time.

BTW - I get the feeling that Thais and Wills is an oxymoron
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mathusalah80
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Re: Seeking advice

Post by mathusalah80 » September 10, 2017, 5:14 pm

I have sent you a pm. Hope it helps. Good luck for the future.

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sometimewoodworker
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Re: Seeking advice

Post by sometimewoodworker » September 10, 2017, 9:48 pm

ozzybill wrote:
September 9, 2017, 2:44 pm
Hello sometimewoodworker. Big tks for the advice. Yes I understand that I cannot own any of the land, the security I need with the house is that sometime in the future, whoever owns the land that it is on, which most likely will be a family member, can decide to move in with their extended family or they may ask me to leave. Or as my stepdaughter says, there is no problem leave things as they are, Only the future will confirm that. My time for decision does not finish until May next year so there is still time to decide on what to do. Big tks again, BILL
The possible problem with any land owner is precisely why I encourage you to investigate the possible getting of an Usufruct. If you can get one, and only the land office can decide, and if whoever you sell/give the land to will also agree to granting one to you, then in law you are protected from any new owner having a change of mind.

You do not own the land but you have complete control as if you were the owner while you live.

This will not stop local people making you feel unwelcome and trying to persuade you to leave, but then nothing will do that.

If you have a good relationship with your stepdaughter then she could be a perfect owner. You will need to get her to understand what an Usufruct is and why you want one (your security in Thailand, that has become your home) any land office will insist on informed consent from both parties.
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Re: Seeking advice

Post by ozzybill » September 11, 2017, 4:34 pm

Hello Sometimeswoodworker, tks again for the advice. I am showing my ignorance here but can you explain what a Usufruct is. What is required to "apply" for it.
Tks again BILL

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Re: Seeking advice

Post by sometimewoodworker » September 12, 2017, 7:03 am

ozzybill wrote:
September 11, 2017, 4:34 pm
Hello Sometimeswoodworker, tks again for the advice. I am showing my ignorance here but can you explain what a Usufruct is. What is required to "apply" for it.
Tks again BILL
An Usufruct is a contract that you and the land owner sign and is then registered by the local land office.
If granted you have all the rights of the landowner (except actually owning the land) until you die. The actual owner can sell the land to someone else but that doesn't change your rights over the land. Usually nobody will buy land with an Usufruct on it.

The land must have a chanote or Nor Sor Sam title

Land officials have discretion as to whether they will allow an Usufruct to be registered, 1) some will, 2) some will not, 3) and some may depending on circumstances (if your land office is type 3 you have a good chance). This is why, if you decide to try to use an Usufruct your next step should be to talk to the land office with an independent professional interpreter explain all of your circumstances and ask if they will register one. Then find someone (possibly your stepdaughter) who will buy / accept the land as a gift and will allow an Usufruct. Then use a lawyer you trust to draw up an Usufruct for you ( costs can vary some law firms may charge over 40,000 Baht others less than 10,000 Baht) and register it at the land office

Further if your land officer is type 2 you can hope that he is transferred in the near future ( regular transfers are standard in the land office) then try again. This is Thailand and NO can change to YES if given time and persistence, be very careful about trying to change minds with gifts you could get a very bad reaction

For what it's worth my land officer is type 3 and SWMBO and I managed to get him to agree

For more information
https://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Usufructs.php
https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/17 ... -thailand/
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Re: Seeking advice

Post by wazza » September 12, 2017, 10:46 am

sometimewoodworker wrote:
September 12, 2017, 7:03 am
ozzybill wrote:
September 11, 2017, 4:34 pm
Hello Sometimeswoodworker, tks again for the advice. I am showing my ignorance here but can you explain what a Usufruct is. What is required to "apply" for it.
Tks again BILL
An Usufruct is a contract that you and the land owner sign and is then registered by the local land office.
If granted you have all the rights of the landowner (except actually owning the land) until you die. The actual owner can sell the land to someone else but that doesn't change your rights over the land. Usually nobody will buy land with an Usufruct on it.

The land must have a chanote or Nor Sor Sam title

Land officials have discretion as to whether they will allow an Usufruct to be registered, 1) some will, 2) some will not, 3) and some may depending on circumstances (if your land office is type 3 you have a good chance). This is why, if you decide to try to use an Usufruct your next step should be to talk to the land office with an independent professional interpreter explain all of your circumstances and ask if they will register one. Then find someone (possibly your stepdaughter) who will buy / accept the land as a gift and will allow an Usufruct. Then use a lawyer you trust to draw up an Usufruct for you ( costs can vary some law firms may charge over 40,000 Baht others less than 10,000 Baht) and register it at the land office

Further if your land officer is type 2 you can hope that he is transferred in the near future ( regular transfers are standard in the land office) then try again. This is Thailand and NO can change to YES if given time and persistence, be very careful about trying to change minds with gifts you could get a very bad reaction

For what it's worth my land officer is type 3 and SWMBO and I managed to get him to agree

For more information
https://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Usufructs.php
https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/17 ... -thailand/
The chanote can not have any mortgage or financial debt registered on it. Banks wont allow a mortgage on a usufruct

OzzyBill - Sometmewoodworker has explained this situation very professionally for you.

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maaka
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Re: Seeking advice

Post by maaka » September 13, 2017, 9:19 am

as I see it, normally the OP would own 1/2 the house as is normal in a marriage ( but not the land under the house ) maybe you now own all the house. but if no Will I cant guess as to what a court would do with your late wifes supposed half share. does that 1/2 share now belong to the family?

ANYWAY this gives you abit of a bargaining chip with the family. they cant have your share of the house ( or house ) and you cant have the land it sits on, unless you and them work a deal..

I think they would want the house after you are departed this earth..so they may well play ball as to your idea..
you have been with the family for some time so I think they will be kind..

thanks for your post, as others like me might one day end up in your position. so it food for thought ..I have asked my missus to get a Will so the drunken family dont try and take off me and her little boy, but she is dragging her feet, mainly because she does not know what a Will is or does.

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Re: Seeking advice

Post by sometimewoodworker » September 13, 2017, 10:05 pm

maaka wrote:
September 13, 2017, 9:19 am
as I see it, normally the OP would own 1/2 the house as is normal in a marriage ( but not the land under the house ) maybe you now own all the house. but if no Will I cant guess as to what a court would do with your late wifes supposed half share. does that 1/2 share now belong to the family?

ANYWAY this gives you abit of a bargaining chip with the family. they cant have your share of the house ( or house ) and you cant have the land it sits on, unless you and them work a deal..

I think they would want the house after you are departed this earth..so they may well play ball as to your idea..
you have been with the family for some time so I think they will be kind..

thanks for your post, as others like me might one day end up in your position. so it food for thought ..I have asked my missus to get a Will so the drunken family dont try and take off me and her little boy, but she is dragging her feet, mainly because she does not know what a Will is or does.
AFIK On death of an intestate spouse you immediately own ½ of all your joint assets (this includes land) you also are entitled to the same share of the estate as children, if no children then it gets much more complicated. See section 1735

https://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/ ... -laws.html

Intestacy is a very messy situation and can cause immense hardship and family feuds. The local amper has simple will forms. As a minimum GET YOUR SPOUSE TO COMPLETE ONE and don't forget to make a will yourself
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Bandung_Dero
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Re: Seeking advice

Post by Bandung_Dero » September 15, 2017, 4:57 pm

From 2 cases I have witnessed here in Ban Dung - Usufruct - is not what it appears to be. For a start the recipient, if successful, normally only gets 30 years. Strangely, the cases I know of relates to the same home contracted to 2 different Farang, over a period of about 8 years, where both crashed into Thai occupation through corruption and typical Thai wheeling and dealing.

Beware!
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sometimewoodworker
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Re: Seeking advice

Post by sometimewoodworker » September 15, 2017, 8:19 pm

Bandung_Dero wrote:
September 15, 2017, 4:57 pm
From 2 cases I have witnessed here in Ban Dung - Usufruct - is not what it appears to be. For a start the recipient, if successful, normally only gets 30 years. Strangely, the cases I know of relates to the same home contracted to 2 different Farang, over a period of about 8 years, where both crashed into Thai occupation through corruption and typical Thai wheeling and dealing.

Beware!
I have, and a friend in a different area has, lifetime Usufructs.

An Usufruct is a contact, sometimes people break or try to break contracts. Sometimes the lawyer drawing up the contact is less than honest. YMMV
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